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Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Preventing Bid Rigging in the Public Procurement Process: Discussion (6 Dec 2023)

John McGuinness: Deputy Conway-Walsh asked a question and Ms Butler discussed in her response the school bus system. Inasmuch as she can, will Ms Butler give me the background details?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Preventing Bid Rigging in the Public Procurement Process: Discussion (6 Dec 2023)

John McGuinness: Did the case specifically involve the public bus system or the school bus system?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Preventing Bid Rigging in the Public Procurement Process: Discussion (6 Dec 2023)

John McGuinness: They tender as part of the process with Bus Éireann.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Preventing Bid Rigging in the Public Procurement Process: Discussion (6 Dec 2023)

John McGuinness: Can someone answer about Bus Éireann as to why the service is not put out to tender?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Preventing Bid Rigging in the Public Procurement Process: Discussion (6 Dec 2023)

John McGuinness: That is the issue. Ms Stewart is from the Office of Government Procurement. Bus Éireann is paid for by taxpayers, that is, directly from the Government to Bus Éireann. In turn, Bus Éireann uses independent operators. Presumably, the 13 defendants are part of the provision by Bus Éireann of the school transport system. However, the school transport system and that...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Preventing Bid Rigging in the Public Procurement Process: Discussion (6 Dec 2023)

John McGuinness: I know that. Is it not of concern to the Office of Government Procurement that significant Government moneys are spent on a school bus system that never ever went to tender? Is that not odd? Is it not against the European Union's regulations or laws?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Preventing Bid Rigging in the Public Procurement Process: Discussion (6 Dec 2023)

John McGuinness: What exactly are the valid reasons?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Preventing Bid Rigging in the Public Procurement Process: Discussion (6 Dec 2023)

John McGuinness: I would like to be in order now when I ask my question.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Preventing Bid Rigging in the Public Procurement Process: Discussion (6 Dec 2023)

John McGuinness: So tell me if this is not within the OGP's remit. The school bus system is operated through the Department of Education obviously. For 20 years or more, people will have heard numerous complaints in this House, by parents on behalf of their children, every single year about the transport system operated to schools. On the other end of that are the independent or private school bus...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Preventing Bid Rigging in the Public Procurement Process: Discussion (6 Dec 2023)

John McGuinness: I appreciate that.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Preventing Bid Rigging in the Public Procurement Process: Discussion (6 Dec 2023)

John McGuinness: Yes. My information is that it is not a very transparent system. The reason the big independent operators do not react to the alert Ms Stewart described that issues when a procurement is being put in place is that there is not a procurement in place, which is strange. I have asked Ms Stewart for the information-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Preventing Bid Rigging in the Public Procurement Process: Discussion (6 Dec 2023)

John McGuinness: -----and she might be kind enough to pass it on to the committee.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Preventing Bid Rigging in the Public Procurement Process: Discussion (6 Dec 2023)

John McGuinness: I thank Deputy Durkan. Finally, I wish to ask the Competition and Consumer Protection Commission the same question as I asked Ms Stewart on the school bus transport. In that system, one has customers who have complaints relative to the service itself. Does the commission take those complaints and investigate them if it were to receive them?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Preventing Bid Rigging in the Public Procurement Process: Discussion (6 Dec 2023)

John McGuinness: Will the Competition and Consumer Protection Commission take a complaint from a person who uses and, essentially, is a consumer of that service, to look at whether it is valid or not? Is it then when Mr. McHugh's organisation kicks in, as it were?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Preventing Bid Rigging in the Public Procurement Process: Discussion (6 Dec 2023)

John McGuinness: We deal with many banking queries here regarding banks, their customers and the tracker mortgage is a prime example. How far does the commission go with banking inquiries? Does it take individual inquiries or complaints and deal with them and does it look across all of the banks, if necessary?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Preventing Bid Rigging in the Public Procurement Process: Discussion (6 Dec 2023)

John McGuinness: Where there is an issue as to how banks interpret audit requirements and regulation around audit, and that interpretation is strictly beneficial for the bank but puts the customer at a disadvantage, can that be set out for the commission where it can decide whether or not to pursue it?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Preventing Bid Rigging in the Public Procurement Process: Discussion (6 Dec 2023)

John McGuinness: That may necessarily be consumer protection but it might be an issue for the Central Bank and for another agency, such as the Financial Services and Pensions Ombudsman, for example. The commission will judge that on the basis of the written complaint made to it and respond to it.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Preventing Bid Rigging in the Public Procurement Process: Discussion (6 Dec 2023)

John McGuinness: I have one final point to make which is the same question regarding Government procurement. Last week, we had a Department in here where it was explaining that the funding of the local State solicitor's office was €8 million. It does not go to audit or to tender. How does that fit in with the Office of Government Procurement's overview of what is being purchased by the State? Would...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Preventing Bid Rigging in the Public Procurement Process: Discussion (6 Dec 2023)

John McGuinness: No, it is not. From what we were told, it is there. It is part of the Office of the DPP. I do not know if it is part of a framework. It read as being very odd to me so I am raising the question. If the OGP comes across that type of money being spent on what essentially is a procurement of services, can it take action? Can it advise that something should be going out to procurement?

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