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Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Collection of Pension Contributions due to the Exchequer
Chapter 3 - Control of Funding for Voted Public Services
Chapter 5 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 95: Financial Reporting in the Public Sector
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 99: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2015
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 100: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2016
(18 Oct 2018)

David Cullinane: So it has increased again.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Collection of Pension Contributions due to the Exchequer
Chapter 3 - Control of Funding for Voted Public Services
Chapter 5 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 95: Financial Reporting in the Public Sector
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 99: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2015
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 100: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2016
(18 Oct 2018)

David Cullinane: I just wanted to make the point that 99.6% is obviously a very high figure. I accept that and am not being churlish about it. I accept that it is very good. Looking at some of the sectors, the HSE, for example, is an area the committee has put a spotlight on in the past. The previous incarnation of the committee did the same. It has resulted in improvements.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Collection of Pension Contributions due to the Exchequer
Chapter 3 - Control of Funding for Voted Public Services
Chapter 5 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 95: Financial Reporting in the Public Sector
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 99: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2015
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 100: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2016
(18 Oct 2018)

David Cullinane: The areas in which further improvement is needed can be seen from page 17 of the Comptroller and Auditor General's report, which sets out the audit completion table. I know Mr. Watt has discussed the third level education bodies and education and training boards. We have focused on that area ourselves and the HEA and the Department will be here today. Why are they slower or simply slow to...

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Collection of Pension Contributions due to the Exchequer
Chapter 3 - Control of Funding for Voted Public Services
Chapter 5 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 95: Financial Reporting in the Public Sector
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 99: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2015
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 100: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2016
(18 Oct 2018)

David Cullinane: I accept that it has improved, but why did it take an effort by the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General, which reports every year to us, and then scrutiny from the committee where we put Accounting Officers through their paces? In fact, I think we sent some of them out of the room at one point earlier this year or last year for not having their accounts up to date. Why was there a...

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Collection of Pension Contributions due to the Exchequer
Chapter 3 - Control of Funding for Voted Public Services
Chapter 5 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 95: Financial Reporting in the Public Sector
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 99: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2015
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 100: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2016
(18 Oct 2018)

David Cullinane: Why do third level institutions behave differently from all of the other bodies that have obviously improved?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Collection of Pension Contributions due to the Exchequer
Chapter 3 - Control of Funding for Voted Public Services
Chapter 5 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 95: Financial Reporting in the Public Sector
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 99: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2015
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 100: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2016
(18 Oct 2018)

David Cullinane: I take on board the fact that the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General has put on the record several times, when we have been asking questions, that there have been improvements. When we discover issues and when we see improvements, we must acknowledge the improvements that have been made, and we have acknowledged those. There has been a huge improvement in the health area, which...

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Collection of Pension Contributions due to the Exchequer
Chapter 3 - Control of Funding for Voted Public Services
Chapter 5 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 95: Financial Reporting in the Public Sector
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 99: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2015
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 100: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2016
(18 Oct 2018)

David Cullinane: I must stop Mr. Watt. That is one element. I do not want to go through any of the individual instances because the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General furnished this committee with a full list of every single organisation that is audited and a list of the areas where there was non-compliance, which is quite substantial. Some of it is due to insufficient competition, which is a...

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Collection of Pension Contributions due to the Exchequer
Chapter 3 - Control of Funding for Voted Public Services
Chapter 5 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 95: Financial Reporting in the Public Sector
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 99: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2015
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 100: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2016
(18 Oct 2018)

David Cullinane: Perhaps Mr. McCarthy can illuminate some of this for me, which might help Mr. Watt to answer my question. My point, which we have discussed at this committee several times, is that this comes up repeatedly. There are a multitude of reasons for it happening. We ask the Comptroller and Auditor General about it and he tells us this is the reason. Some of it is due to practical reasons. It...

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Collection of Pension Contributions due to the Exchequer
Chapter 3 - Control of Funding for Voted Public Services
Chapter 5 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 95: Financial Reporting in the Public Sector
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 99: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2015
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 100: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2016
(18 Oct 2018)

David Cullinane: Or it may not.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Collection of Pension Contributions due to the Exchequer
Chapter 3 - Control of Funding for Voted Public Services
Chapter 5 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 95: Financial Reporting in the Public Sector
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 99: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2015
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 100: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2016
(18 Oct 2018)

David Cullinane: I accept the Comptroller and Auditor General's analysis that there is a systemic problem in the HSE because that is the one area that we keep focusing on.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Collection of Pension Contributions due to the Exchequer
Chapter 3 - Control of Funding for Voted Public Services
Chapter 5 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 95: Financial Reporting in the Public Sector
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 99: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2015
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 100: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2016
(18 Oct 2018)

David Cullinane: Not enough progress has been made, that is for sure. What sanctions are in place?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Collection of Pension Contributions due to the Exchequer
Chapter 3 - Control of Funding for Voted Public Services
Chapter 5 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 95: Financial Reporting in the Public Sector
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 99: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2015
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 100: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2016
(18 Oct 2018)

David Cullinane: Aside from the Comptroller and Auditor General noting it in his accounts, and the committee asking questions of him or the Accounting Officer when he or she comes before the committee, what sanctions are available in the event that the strategies the Comptroller and Auditor General stated are needed to correct failures are not applied?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Collection of Pension Contributions due to the Exchequer
Chapter 3 - Control of Funding for Voted Public Services
Chapter 5 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 95: Financial Reporting in the Public Sector
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 99: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2015
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 100: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2016
(18 Oct 2018)

David Cullinane: I am not out to punish organisations unnecessarily. However, if there is no sanction applied or the only sanction is a slap on the wrist, a note in the Comptroller and Auditor General's audit opinion or a question asked of the organisation in question when it appears before the Committee of Public Accounts, does Mr. Watt think that is sufficient? Could improvements be made in how we...

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Collection of Pension Contributions due to the Exchequer
Chapter 3 - Control of Funding for Voted Public Services
Chapter 5 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 95: Financial Reporting in the Public Sector
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 99: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2015
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 100: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2016
(18 Oct 2018)

David Cullinane: Is Mr. McCarthy hopeful that next year, when we have this discussion again, we will have seen improvements in the health area?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Collection of Pension Contributions due to the Exchequer
Chapter 3 - Control of Funding for Voted Public Services
Chapter 5 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 95: Financial Reporting in the Public Sector
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 99: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2015
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 100: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2016
(18 Oct 2018)

David Cullinane: If Mr. Watt is the Accounting Officer and Mr. McCarthy is the Comptroller and Auditor General, who is responsible, apart from the head of the Department or the director general of the HSE? Does the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform have a role in ensuring that the HSE is compliant and does improve?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Collection of Pension Contributions due to the Exchequer
Chapter 3 - Control of Funding for Voted Public Services
Chapter 5 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 95: Financial Reporting in the Public Sector
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 99: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2015
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 100: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2016
(18 Oct 2018)

David Cullinane: Does Mr. Watt personally, as an Accounting Officer, have any responsibility to ensure the HSE is more compliant?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Collection of Pension Contributions due to the Exchequer
Chapter 3 - Control of Funding for Voted Public Services
Chapter 5 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 95: Financial Reporting in the Public Sector
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 99: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2015
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 100: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2016
(18 Oct 2018)

David Cullinane: We could say that about anything. People should not steal from shops either but unfortunately they do. Sanctions are provided in order that people know a penalty will be paid when they do certain things.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Collection of Pension Contributions due to the Exchequer
Chapter 3 - Control of Funding for Voted Public Services
Chapter 5 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 95: Financial Reporting in the Public Sector
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 99: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2015
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 100: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2016
(18 Oct 2018)

David Cullinane: It is not, however.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Collection of Pension Contributions due to the Exchequer
Chapter 3 - Control of Funding for Voted Public Services
Chapter 5 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 95: Financial Reporting in the Public Sector
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 99: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2015
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 100: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2016
(18 Oct 2018)

David Cullinane: I will conclude with two questions on the same theme.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Collection of Pension Contributions due to the Exchequer
Chapter 3 - Control of Funding for Voted Public Services
Chapter 5 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 95: Financial Reporting in the Public Sector
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 99: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2015
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 100: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2016
(18 Oct 2018)

David Cullinane: Mr. Watt mentioned the Public Service Pay Commission. I met Mr. Watt on this issue in a previous role. What is the current position regarding pay equalisation for public servants recruited since 2011? Where will they be at the end of the time period for resolving this issue? A number of pay restoration increases have been made to public servants as a consequence of pay agreements. They...

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