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Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Business of Select Committee (21 Feb 2019)

Pearse Doherty: Let me clarify, since Deputy Deasy has raised this. I have made the point and corrected my position on this. The Secretary General has refused to come before this committee on any of the five, I believe, or possibly six dates on which we said we could accommodate him. I made it clear that there was a breakthrough with the letter last night. I believe it was in response to the letter I...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2019
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
(21 Feb 2019)

Pearse Doherty: I welcome the Minister and all his officials. We were running out of chairs for a minute. I appreciate that we have taken both Estimates together. That is why we have both Departments.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2019
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
(21 Feb 2019)

Pearse Doherty: I appreciate the Minister and the officials' facilitation in taking both together. I will be brief with my questions. I want to pick up on some of the issues that have been raised by Deputy Michael McGrath and by the Chairperson. We raised the issue of food supplements on Report Stage and Committee Stage of the Finance Bill. Is it still the Government's intention to look at policy in this...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2019
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
(21 Feb 2019)

Pearse Doherty: In the Minister's view would it be helpful, while recognising the independence of the Revenue Commissioners, to defer the date of implementation of the new rate until that review is completed?

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2019
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
(21 Feb 2019)

Pearse Doherty: I appreciate that.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2019
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
(21 Feb 2019)

Pearse Doherty: I recognise the independence of the Revenue Commissioners. As I have said before, I really respect the Revenue Commissioners. They have done an excellent job. They are one of the few institutions that came through the crash in whose actions, particularly in recent years, we are able to have pride. The Minister is 100% right. They interpret policy. It is our job to set policy. Has work...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2019
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
(21 Feb 2019)

Pearse Doherty: I will make one point and then jump to a similar issue. In the Minister's view, would it be appropriate to cut the issue of food supplements out of the tax strategy group review and have it as a standalone paper? That would allow the issue to be accelerated and could assist the Revenue Commissioners in their determination of when the decision with regard to the 23% VAT rate will be...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2019
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
(21 Feb 2019)

Pearse Doherty: I recognise that issues around VAT are deeply complex, but it would be helpful, and something I would support, if that analysis could be brought forward. It might result in the Revenue Commissioners looking at the timeframe if they thought, for example, there was a piece of paper from the Department relating to future policy on this issue. The Minister hears very clearly from across the...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2019
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
(21 Feb 2019)

Pearse Doherty: I appreciate the Minister's response and that he has to make the connection. There is a history of independent bookmakers closing down. I understand that certain books and audited accounts have been made available to the Minister, or at least to his officials, with which he can verify the connection between firms that were already struggling and which could not survive even under the old...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2019
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
(21 Feb 2019)

Pearse Doherty: That is a disappointing response. We understand the Garda will have different priorities. It deals with white-collar crime, gangland crime and everything else, so this may not be the issue at the top of its agenda. From the perspective of this committee, however, in dealing with community groups regarding issues such as play areas, marts and people trying to run festivals or motor...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2019
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
(21 Feb 2019)

Pearse Doherty: We are 36 days away from Brexit. There is a 6% increase in the budget of the Revenue Commissioners. Does the Minister believe that is an appropriate increase in the context of a no-deal Brexit? There has been no agreement on how the Border will be dealt with in a no-deal scenario. The only statements from the Government refer to the need for difficult conversations with the EU. We do...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2019
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
(21 Feb 2019)

Pearse Doherty: The Minister outlined to the committee additional Brexit contingency support of €115 million. Additional supports will be needed in certain sectors in a no-deal scenario. Has the Government, or the Minister, examined the issue of the regions in a no-deal scenario? We hear from all of the experts that some regions in the State will be especially affected. The south east and the...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2019
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
(21 Feb 2019)

Pearse Doherty: I have to go to the Dáil unfortunately, but one of the Department's outputs for 2018 was the agreement with Apple on its transfer of funds into an escrow account. What is the total amount in that escrow fund now?

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2019
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
(21 Feb 2019)

Pearse Doherty: Does that include the interest?

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2019
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
(21 Feb 2019)

Pearse Doherty: Is there satisfaction on the way that account has been designed and will accrue interest in the future? It will build over time. If the case were to be lost in the European courts, and those moneys had to be transferred back to Apple, is the Minister satisfied there would be no cost to the Exchequer?

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2019
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
(21 Feb 2019)

Pearse Doherty: It is not guaranteed that there will be no loss.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2019
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
(21 Feb 2019)

Pearse Doherty: If we are fully protected, then that risk is not ours.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2019
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
(21 Feb 2019)

Pearse Doherty: Have we had any indication from the courts as to when the case is likely to be heard?

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2019
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
(21 Feb 2019)

Pearse Doherty: Is it the view of the Department that the case will conclude within a short period? What is its view on the length of the case and the likely timeframe for a judgment?

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2019
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
(21 Feb 2019)

Pearse Doherty: Does the Minister have any plans for the €14 billion the State will have if it loses the case?

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