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Seanad: Commission of Investigation (Mother and Baby Homes and certain related Matters) Records, and another Matter, Bill 2020: Committee and Remaining Stages (16 Oct 2020)

Michael McDowell: I move amendment No. 2: In page 3, between lines 21 and 22, to insert the following:“ “Confidential Committee” means the committee established at paragraph (3) of the terms of reference as recited in the Order of 2015;”. Section 1 lists definitions and states, "the databases of residents of the institutions (specified in the Appendix to the terms of reference...

Seanad: Commission of Investigation (Mother and Baby Homes and certain related Matters) Records, and another Matter, Bill 2020: Committee and Remaining Stages (16 Oct 2020)

Michael McDowell: That was my understanding too. The database that is going to Tusla has nothing to do with an individual who, in response to the appeal by the commission, came forward to give the confidential committee information about their experiences. Is this going to be transferred to Tusla as a database? I take it that it is not considered a related record. I wanted to be 100% clear on that because...

Seanad: Commission of Investigation (Mother and Baby Homes and certain related Matters) Records, and another Matter, Bill 2020: Committee and Remaining Stages (16 Oct 2020)

Michael McDowell: I point out to Senators Higgins and Ruane that before the Minister clarified that nothing would go to Tusla from the confidential committee, amendment No. 7 stated: “This section does not apply to any record or documents created for or by the Commission for the purposes of the Confidential Committee unless the person supplying the document or record of the information embodied in the...

Seanad: Commission of Investigation (Mother and Baby Homes and certain related Matters) Records, and another Matter, Bill 2020: Committee and Remaining Stages (16 Oct 2020)

Michael McDowell: I ask the Senator to listen to me for a second. I am not trying to enforce any confidentiality on anybody. Senator Ruane made the suggestion that somehow this was my fault because the 2004 Act somehow provided for this. The 2004 Act did not ever contemplate a situation where people would give evidence without being cross-examined on it by anybody affected by it. It was to avoid all of...

Seanad: Commission of Investigation (Mother and Baby Homes and certain related Matters) Records, and another Matter, Bill 2020: Committee and Remaining Stages (16 Oct 2020)

Michael McDowell: First, like Senator Mullen, I agree that my set of amendments were concentrating on the rights of those who wanted to maintain their confidentiality because that is what I was concerned with. Senators Ruane and Higgins have pointed to the opposite cohort who did not want confidentiality and wanted total publicity and public hearings. I hope Senator Ruane will not accuse me of mansplaining.

Seanad: Commission of Investigation (Mother and Baby Homes and certain related Matters) Records, and another Matter, Bill 2020: Committee and Remaining Stages (16 Oct 2020)

Michael McDowell: If one goes back to 2004 and looks at the situation that the then Government found itself in, it wanted to do justice to the victims of clerical sexual abuse. It wanted to establish an inquiry into the Dublin archdiocese, which was conducted by Judge Murphy as well. She has been a huge pillar of the State in these matters. The only tools available to us at the time were the tribunal of...

Seanad: Commission of Investigation (Mother and Baby Homes and certain related Matters) Records, and another Matter, Bill 2020: Committee and Remaining Stages (16 Oct 2020)

Michael McDowell: What about the records then?

Seanad: Commission of Investigation (Mother and Baby Homes and certain related Matters) Records, and another Matter, Bill 2020: Committee and Remaining Stages (16 Oct 2020)

Michael McDowell: The Senator is inviting Judge Murphy to turn on the shredder.

Seanad: Commission of Investigation (Mother and Baby Homes and certain related Matters) Records, and another Matter, Bill 2020: Committee and Remaining Stages (16 Oct 2020)

Michael McDowell: The Minister-----

Seanad: Commission of Investigation (Mother and Baby Homes and certain related Matters) Records, and another Matter, Bill 2020: Committee and Remaining Stages (16 Oct 2020)

Michael McDowell: Senator Seery Kearney said the people outside the gates are supporters of the Minister. They are not.

Seanad: Commission of Investigation (Mother and Baby Homes and certain related Matters) Records, and another Matter, Bill 2020: Committee and Remaining Stages (16 Oct 2020)

Michael McDowell: Yes.

Seanad: Commission of Investigation (Mother and Baby Homes and certain related Matters) Records, and another Matter, Bill 2020: Committee and Remaining Stages (16 Oct 2020)

Michael McDowell: In view of what the Minister has said, namely, that he proposes to bring before Dáil Éireann an amendment to this legislation to allow some mechanism for the wishes of the people who were before the confidential committee to get a thumbs up or thumbs down as to whether their records can be anonymised or sent forward unredacted, I do not want to press my amendment further, given that...

Seanad: Commission of Investigation (Mother and Baby Homes and certain related Matters) Records, and another Matter, Bill 2020: Committee and Remaining Stages (16 Oct 2020)

Michael McDowell: Hear, hear.

Seanad: Commission of Investigation (Mother and Baby Homes and certain related Matters) Records, and another Matter, Bill 2020: Committee and Remaining Stages (16 Oct 2020)

Michael McDowell: Senator Mullen's five or six questions do require to be answered insofar as the Minister can do so. If the commission asks for another few days to carry out the consultative process, whatever that entails, I presume the Government will not force it to finish by 30 October in circumstances in which what the Minister is announcing to us now has yet to become law and all the rest of it. It...

Seanad: Commission of Investigation (Mother and Baby Homes and certain related Matters) Records, and another Matter, Bill 2020: Committee and Remaining Stages (16 Oct 2020)

Michael McDowell: Amendment No. 7 has not been discussed.

Seanad: Commission of Investigation (Mother and Baby Homes and certain related Matters) Records, and another Matter, Bill 2020: Committee and Remaining Stages (16 Oct 2020)

Michael McDowell: I will withdraw amendments Nos. 7 and 21, in view of the Minister's statement.

Seanad: Commission of Investigation (Mother and Baby Homes and certain related Matters) Records, and another Matter, Bill 2020: Committee and Remaining Stages (16 Oct 2020)

Michael McDowell: I will not be moving amendment No. 21 either.

Seanad: Commission of Investigation (Mother and Baby Homes and certain related Matters) Records, and another Matter, Bill 2020: Order for Second Stage (14 Oct 2020)

Michael McDowell: I want to put on the record of the House that I and other Members of the House have tabled an amendment which states: "To delete all words after "That" and to substitute the following: "the Bill be read a Second Time on 21st October, 2020, to allow for a further consultation on certain provisions of the Bill, including the insertion of the words 'another matter' into the title of the Bill...

Seanad: Commission of Investigation (Mother and Baby Homes and certain related Matters) Records, and another Matter, Bill 2020: Order for Second Stage (14 Oct 2020)

Michael McDowell: It will be taken at the end of Second Stage.

Seanad: Commission of Investigation (Mother and Baby Homes and certain related Matters) Records, and another Matter, Bill 2020: Order for Second Stage (14 Oct 2020)

Michael McDowell: The point I am making is that, as I understand it, the vote will be taken at the end of Second Stage as an amendment to the Government's motion that the Bill be read a Second Time. I want to reiterate the point that, as far as I know, no Member, other than a Government Member – and I do not even know about them – was warned about section 6 and the other matter. There has been...

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