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Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 10 - Funding and Oversight of Approved Housing Bodies
Vote 34 - Housing, Planning and Local Government
2017 Financial Statements - Housing Agency
(25 Oct 2018)

David Cullinane: All the more reason, a Chathaoirligh, we should have representatives of councils or the CEOs-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 10 - Funding and Oversight of Approved Housing Bodies
Vote 34 - Housing, Planning and Local Government
2017 Financial Statements - Housing Agency
(25 Oct 2018)

David Cullinane: -----appear before us so that we can explore the issue with them. I have spoken to a number of them. If the Secretary General remembers the last time he was in here, I had contacted a number of managers who I know across this State and that was one of their concerns. I am interested to see how this works out. Obviously, it is still not fully resolved and I hope that it is because it...

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 10 - Funding and Oversight of Approved Housing Bodies
Vote 34 - Housing, Planning and Local Government
2017 Financial Statements - Housing Agency
(25 Oct 2018)

David Cullinane: I am talking about the European Commission's report.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 10 - Funding and Oversight of Approved Housing Bodies
Vote 34 - Housing, Planning and Local Government
2017 Financial Statements - Housing Agency
(25 Oct 2018)

David Cullinane: No.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 10 - Funding and Oversight of Approved Housing Bodies
Vote 34 - Housing, Planning and Local Government
2017 Financial Statements - Housing Agency
(25 Oct 2018)

David Cullinane: I refer to the European Commission and the sector classification of approved housing bodies. It looks at whether AHBs should be on-balance sheet or off-balance sheet. Is that a source of contention? The conclusion was that "Eurostat considers that AHBs have a non-market nature." Is the Secretary General concerned about that? Has he read the judgment?

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 10 - Funding and Oversight of Approved Housing Bodies
Vote 34 - Housing, Planning and Local Government
2017 Financial Statements - Housing Agency
(25 Oct 2018)

David Cullinane: It is a EUROSTAT ruling, essentially.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 10 - Funding and Oversight of Approved Housing Bodies
Vote 34 - Housing, Planning and Local Government
2017 Financial Statements - Housing Agency
(25 Oct 2018)

David Cullinane: What are the implications of that ruling?

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 10 - Funding and Oversight of Approved Housing Bodies
Vote 34 - Housing, Planning and Local Government
2017 Financial Statements - Housing Agency
(25 Oct 2018)

David Cullinane: Have I read it correctly? Is it essentially talking about market rents? It had a concern about the way rent is calculated by the approved housing bodies - in other words, whether it is a subvention.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 10 - Funding and Oversight of Approved Housing Bodies
Vote 34 - Housing, Planning and Local Government
2017 Financial Statements - Housing Agency
(25 Oct 2018)

David Cullinane: Yes.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 10 - Funding and Oversight of Approved Housing Bodies
Vote 34 - Housing, Planning and Local Government
2017 Financial Statements - Housing Agency
(25 Oct 2018)

David Cullinane: That is something the Department will have to consider and is considering.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 10 - Funding and Oversight of Approved Housing Bodies
Vote 34 - Housing, Planning and Local Government
2017 Financial Statements - Housing Agency
(25 Oct 2018)

David Cullinane: Maybe we will come back to the issue at some point. The last topic I want to deal with before I make one overall observation is public private partnerships, PPPs. There are 500 units as part of a PPP project in Dublin on site. I know from what I have read elsewhere because we have not discussed this matter that there was an element of benchmarking done to consider the economic cost of...

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 10 - Funding and Oversight of Approved Housing Bodies
Vote 34 - Housing, Planning and Local Government
2017 Financial Statements - Housing Agency
(25 Oct 2018)

David Cullinane: Given that the project is now under way, what would prevent the Department from publishing the benchmarking exercise in respect of this project?

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 10 - Funding and Oversight of Approved Housing Bodies
Vote 34 - Housing, Planning and Local Government
2017 Financial Statements - Housing Agency
(25 Oct 2018)

David Cullinane: Who signed off on it?

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 10 - Funding and Oversight of Approved Housing Bodies
Vote 34 - Housing, Planning and Local Government
2017 Financial Statements - Housing Agency
(25 Oct 2018)

David Cullinane: Would local councils have a role?

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 10 - Funding and Oversight of Approved Housing Bodies
Vote 34 - Housing, Planning and Local Government
2017 Financial Statements - Housing Agency
(25 Oct 2018)

David Cullinane: Do local councillors have a role to play?

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 10 - Funding and Oversight of Approved Housing Bodies
Vote 34 - Housing, Planning and Local Government
2017 Financial Statements - Housing Agency
(25 Oct 2018)

David Cullinane: The local councillors have a role to play in terms of passing the land into the programme. How can they make judgments? This is what I hear from local councillors. How can we be assured that we are going to get value for money if we cannot see the ex anteanalysis that is done or the value for money or benchmarking exercises that are done? How can I, as a member of the Committee of Public...

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 10 - Funding and Oversight of Approved Housing Bodies
Vote 34 - Housing, Planning and Local Government
2017 Financial Statements - Housing Agency
(25 Oct 2018)

David Cullinane: We went through this before in respect of other matters. We are talking about post-project reviews that, in some respects, were never published or whose publication we had to force. I think that was in the context of either health or transport.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 10 - Funding and Oversight of Approved Housing Bodies
Vote 34 - Housing, Planning and Local Government
2017 Financial Statements - Housing Agency
(25 Oct 2018)

David Cullinane: Yes, and education was another. Those organisations are audited by the Comptroller and Auditor General and, therefore, he would have sight of some of those reviews. The problem is that in these cases he does not. He would not have had sight of any of the analysis done here as he does not audit-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 10 - Funding and Oversight of Approved Housing Bodies
Vote 34 - Housing, Planning and Local Government
2017 Financial Statements - Housing Agency
(25 Oct 2018)

David Cullinane: What about the Local Government Audit Service? Would it have the information?

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 10 - Funding and Oversight of Approved Housing Bodies
Vote 34 - Housing, Planning and Local Government
2017 Financial Statements - Housing Agency
(25 Oct 2018)

David Cullinane: I appreciate all that is being done, and I accept that Mr. John McCarthy says the benchmarking is done and that he is satisfied there is value for money. My problem is that we can never really determine that, however. We can determine it at some stage long afterwards, but there is little democratic accountability about all of this. We came up against it in other areas also. We must find...

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