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Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Brendan Howlin: I assure the Deputy that the meat in pursuit is much richer when the pursuit in these matters is of a Government Member than of an Opposition Member.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Brendan Howlin: To reiterate, every proposal we have is grounded in constitutional provision. Under the Constitution, Members of the House and officeholders are made accountable to the House, so there is a constitutional anchoring for that. The Deputy asked what will stop people from going to the High Court. Thankfully, nothing. Any citizen, in regard to any issue, can go and look for a judicial review,...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Brendan Howlin: It must be right, then.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Brendan Howlin: Section 6 makes provision for an inquiry limited to recording and reporting evidence and making findings of uncontested fact. The witnesses are called and the evidence presented is reported. We must remain within the confines of the Abbeylara judgment. We cannot find adverse facts against somebody who is not constitutionally amenable to the Oireachtas. The view is that this is as far as...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Brendan Howlin: We are looking at the grounds of constitutional authority for inquiries. These relate to the legislative function. In essence the findings that would be permissible under this section would be systems issues as opposed to findings against an individual. The findings that could be made in a section 7 inquiry are that certain functions do not operate well.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Brendan Howlin: Through the Chair, Deputy, that is a very sensible question. I am now thinking out loud. I said there would probably be two parts to the inquiry. First, we inquire into what happened. Since one cannot make adjudicatory decisions on the conduct of an individual, that will be an "inquire, record, report"-type inquiry. I believe there is a possibility - but this depends on the view of the...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Brendan Howlin: No. The Deputy has raised an interesting point and I should have explained it. The process is to find out what is constitutionally permissible. Each of the sections outlines the legal advice, the external legal advice and all the discussion we have had on what is constitutionally permissible in the types of inquiry laid out in the Bill. It is not legally permissible to have a real hybrid...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Brendan Howlin: Separately. It will be the same committee, but it will do one module of work under the relevant section and then the other bits.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Brendan Howlin: It is a matter for the House, of course, but that is what I had envisaged.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Brendan Howlin: I move amendment No. 9: In page 18, subsection (1), line 12, to delete “subsection (6) and”.Amendments Nos. 9 and 11, again, are consequential on the substantial amendment No. 18, the new section on the presidential issue.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Brendan Howlin: I move amendment No. 10: In page 18, subsection (4), line 38, to delete “section 7 inquiry” and substitute “section 8 inquiry”.This is a technical amendment to ensure that cross-referencing in the Bill is accurate.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Brendan Howlin: I move amendment No. 11: In page 19, lines 1 to 12, to delete subsection (6).

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Brendan Howlin: I move amendment No. 12: In page 19, subsection (7), line 14, to delete paragraph (a).In the published Bill, the provisions dealing with an inquiry relating to impeachment of the President are set out in section 8. This group of amendments allows for the creation of a distinct provision in the Bill relating to the impeachment of the President pursuant to Article 12.10 of the Constitution....

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Brendan Howlin: Rather than have-----

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Brendan Howlin: I think he should be much more at ease because we are not corralling him in with others but are giving him due deference, status and prominence as a standalone entity. The President is elected by the people under our Constitution. That is very important. When I thought about the office of the President, the idea was that other constitutional officeholders that are appointed by the Cabinet,...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Brendan Howlin: The Deputy should not be drawing any such awful conclusions about the high office of the President, who should not in any way be adversely referred to.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Brendan Howlin: I understand the point the Deputy is making and I listened very carefully to his arguments on Second Stage. First, after the lack of success of the constitutional amendment we proposed last year, everything we are now doing must be anchored in constitutional authority. Article 15.10 of the Constitution, from which section 9 inquiries derive their constitutional authority, only regulates the...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Brendan Howlin: That would be a fair victory, would it not?

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Brendan Howlin: It is a big penalty.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Brendan Howlin: If the committee drew up a report and found-----

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