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Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Brendan Howlin: We were talking about amendment No. 13 but Deputy Donnelly seems to be resiling from that.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Brendan Howlin: The Deputy is saying that a quarter of a committee should overrule three-quarters.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Brendan Howlin: Can we deal with the amendment that is before us?

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Brendan Howlin: I am dealing exclusively with amendment No. 13 in Deputy Donnelly's name, to amend section 11 which concerns the power of a committee to make a proposal to conduct a Part 2 inquiry. The amendment, which I find extraordinary, is that one quarter of a committee can make that determination, overruling three-quarters of the committee. That is fundamentally wrong. It is a tyranny. The Deputy...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Brendan Howlin: That could happen anyway but the notion that a quarter of a committee would overrule three-quarters strikes me as fundamentally flawed.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Brendan Howlin: The same logic applies here except that the amendment refers to the whole House. The notion that a quarter would overrule three-quarters would be a source of great mischief.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Brendan Howlin: They obviously do not have Article 15.1.1° of our Constitution, which states: All questions in each House shall, save as otherwise provided by this Constitution, be determined by a majority of the votes of the members present and voting other than the Chairman or presiding member. The Deputy's amendment is unconstitutional.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Brendan Howlin: I move amendment No. 17: In page 24, before section 14, but in Part 2, to insert the following new section: "CHAPTER 214.—Section 15 applies when—(a) a notice of motion referred to in Article 12.10.3 of the Constitution has been signed subject to and in accordance with the provisions of that Article, (b) a resolution referred to in Article 12.10.4 of the Constitution has been...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Brendan Howlin: I move amendment No. 18: In page 24, before section 14, but in Part 2, to insert the following new section:15.—(1) (a) Subject to paragraph (b) and subsection (4), when this section applies, a committee may investigate the charge under Article 12.10 of the Constitution by virtue of which this section applies.(b) The other provisions of this Act shall, with all necessary modifications,...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Brendan Howlin: I move amendment No. 19: In page 24, subsection (1), lines 35 to 38, to delete paragraphs (d) and (e) and substitute the following:"(d) if the inquiry is a section 9 inquiry, make such a finding pursuant to the relevant provisions of section 9, (e) if the inquiry is a section 10 inquiry, make such a finding pursuant to the relevant provisions of section 10, and (f) if the inquiry is a section...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Brendan Howlin: The Bill is crafted on the advice of the Attorney General and I am advised that it is constitutional. It is important that we are able to get access to any document and that a person cannot simply refuse access on the grounds that the document might incriminate himself or herself. There is no criminal sanction in the Bill so the mere furnishing of a document would not lead to a criminal...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Brendan Howlin: That is extraordinary.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Brendan Howlin: No.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Brendan Howlin: I find the proposal extraordinary, because to cure the problem of an overweening majority Deputy Donnelly is proposing to have an overweening minority that can overturn the majority view. That is an extraordinary state of affairs. Deputy Donnelly is proposing that one quarter of the members of the committee should constitute a sufficient number to deem a proposal to be proposed by a...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Brendan Howlin: We are considering the other two amendments. That is fine. I will not refer to it. Let us consider amendments Nos. 13 and 14. Amendment No. 13 states: "Notwithstanding any rules referred to in this section, one quarter of the members of a committee shall constitute a sufficient number of committee members to deem a proposal to have been proposed by a committee." Is that what Deputy...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Brendan Howlin: No; amendment No. 13 states: "Notwithstanding any rules referred to in this section, one quarter of the members of a committee shall constitute a sufficient number of committee members to deem a proposal to have been proposed by a committee." Is Deputy Donnelly standing over that?

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Brendan Howlin: The Deputy makes a very fair point. I have said publicly that there was a reluctance among people to vote to give additional powers to committees. They looked at the way some witnesses had been treated and said, "Hmm, I don't want to give additional powers to the Oireachtas in that regard". When this Bill was published I said there would be some element of proofing, by us, so that as an...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Brendan Howlin: We will see when we reach section 18 that a Member may not be a committee member where a perception of bias may arise. In section 18, we lay out how that perception might arise by way of utterance or any other relevant circumstance that could give rise to an objective position whereby a person would be biased coming to an inquiry.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Brendan Howlin: That is not true.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Brendan Howlin: There were the former Members, Ivor Callely and Raphael Burke, who were members of the party in Government at the given times.

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