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Public Accounts Committee: HEA Financial Statements 2017 (18 Oct 2018)

David Cullinane: Did the report go from Dr. Love to legal or did it go from the board to legal?

Public Accounts Committee: HEA Financial Statements 2017 (18 Oct 2018)

David Cullinane: Was legal involved when the terms of reference were set?

Public Accounts Committee: HEA Financial Statements 2017 (18 Oct 2018)

David Cullinane: Did legal only become involved when the draft report was compiled?

Public Accounts Committee: HEA Financial Statements 2017 (18 Oct 2018)

David Cullinane: I want to get the timelines and context right. A draft report was done and it had to go to the institute. I imagine senior management and, potentially, people who may have been identifiable in the draft report would receive copies. That is part of the process.

Public Accounts Committee: HEA Financial Statements 2017 (18 Oct 2018)

David Cullinane: Did legal get involved when it received legal letters from individuals in the institute or maybe people who worked in the institute, or was it involved before that?

Public Accounts Committee: HEA Financial Statements 2017 (18 Oct 2018)

David Cullinane: Was legal's concerns based on what might have been factual or not in the report or was it based purely on the powers of the HEA to actually do the report?

Public Accounts Committee: HEA Financial Statements 2017 (18 Oct 2018)

David Cullinane: Were there any concerns about the facts in the report, by which I mean the content?

Public Accounts Committee: HEA Financial Statements 2017 (18 Oct 2018)

David Cullinane: I accept that. We will deal with the issue of powers because the matter is now with the Attorney General and we will get advice, not only on the Waterford report, but the powers of the HEA to do these types of reports.

Public Accounts Committee: HEA Financial Statements 2017 (18 Oct 2018)

David Cullinane: If I was legal looking at it this, there is the issue of whether the HEA has the powers to do this. There is also what is in the report, its content and the facts that were established. Were there concerns about the facts that were established? Was it more-----

Public Accounts Committee: HEA Financial Statements 2017 (18 Oct 2018)

David Cullinane: This is very important for me. We have established facts that are in a draft report and a modified report, which we cannot see and may never see. The facts are there so the issues do not go away. We will deal with whether the HEA has these powers but the issues still remain. I want to paint the scenario and maybe Mr. Beausang can help me with this matter as well. The Attorney General...

Public Accounts Committee: HEA Financial Statements 2017 (18 Oct 2018)

David Cullinane: That is the same thing. At some point, the Department is going to have to make a judgment call. Actually, it will not be the Department. Will the HEA make the final call?

Public Accounts Committee: HEA Financial Statements 2017 (18 Oct 2018)

David Cullinane: I ask Mr. Beausang to stop for a moment because I am going run out of time and I have a number of other points to make. The HEA will make that call at some point. The call will be that it cannot publish the report, based on the legal advice and the advice of the Attorney General. Dr. Love said that, in principle, he wants to publish the report but that it may be out of his hands; it may...

Public Accounts Committee: HEA Financial Statements 2017 (18 Oct 2018)

David Cullinane: If it is the case that the report is dead in the water - let us hope it is not - then the Department and the HEA will have to come back. In light of that advice, we will then discuss what is next. My point is that the matter cannot be let go; it cannot end there. It is not going to end with a conclusion that the report cannot be published, that we must forget about the 50 people who...

Public Accounts Committee: HEA Financial Statements 2017 (18 Oct 2018)

David Cullinane: That is what I wanted to flesh out in a bit more detail. It may not be the current modified report. Come what may, there has to be some process that does exactly what Mr. McLoone did, but within whatever remit and powers-----

Public Accounts Committee: HEA Financial Statements 2017 (18 Oct 2018)

David Cullinane: -----are appropriate. The established facts are never going to change. The facts are the facts and they have to be made public at some point, because that is what public accountability involves. That is my point. I have very real concerns about the way I, as a member of this committee, was treated. I want to put them those concerns to Mr. Ó Foghlú and Dr. Love. Mr. Ó...

Public Accounts Committee: HEA Financial Statements 2017 (18 Oct 2018)

David Cullinane: Would Mr. Ó Foghlú see that as an appropriate response from the accountable person?

Public Accounts Committee: HEA Financial Statements 2017 (18 Oct 2018)

David Cullinane: Here is my concern. We have a HEA examination into an institute. The accountable person - the head of the relevant organisation - went to local media in the constituency of a Deputy who is member of the Committee of Public Accounts and called into question the motivations of that member in asking questions. This person said that the member, referring to me, was trying to deconstruct 20...

Public Accounts Committee: HEA Financial Statements 2017 (18 Oct 2018)

David Cullinane: Sorry?

Public Accounts Committee: HEA Financial Statements 2017 (18 Oct 2018)

David Cullinane: I am not asking Mr. Ó Foghlú. I do not need his-----

Public Accounts Committee: HEA Financial Statements 2017 (18 Oct 2018)

David Cullinane: I will stop Mr. Ó Foghlú there. That was a flippant response.

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