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Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Brendan Howlin: Clearance.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Brendan Howlin: No. For the sake of clarity, this section only refers to criminal proceedings. They could not be initiated by someone who wanted to thwart the inquiry deliberately. They could only be initiated by the Director of Public Prosecutions, DPP.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Brendan Howlin: No. The Director of Corporate Enforcement would apply to the DPP, who determines whether prosecutions should be taken.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Brendan Howlin: Only the DPP can take criminal proceedings.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Brendan Howlin: I move amendment No. 40: In page 81, subsection (2), lines 39 and 40, to delete all words from and including "or" in line 39 down to and including "both" in line 40 and substitute the following:"(and irrespective of whether the definition of "private paper" provided for in such rules and standing orders overlaps, whether in whole or in part, with the definition of "private paper" in this...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Brendan Howlin: Yes.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Brendan Howlin: It will not be relevant after that.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Brendan Howlin: Yes. The Constitution provides a privilege protecting those papers, but it does not amplify that privilege. As section 106(1) states: "Subsections (1)(a) and (3)(a) of section 102 shall apply to a former member who has not died as if the references in those subsections to "member" were references to "former member"."

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Brendan Howlin: Yes. All documents that come to the Oireachtas are privileged unless they are set aside as not being privileged. The uniqueness of Oireachtas Members is that they have the right to receive communication from citizens without putting those citizens under hazard unless that communication interferes with the administration of law or criminal proceedings or is required by an investigation....

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Brendan Howlin: No. If a Member wrote to someone defaming him or her, the Member would have no protection. However, if the Member defamed him or her in the Chamber, the Member would be protected.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Brendan Howlin: I move amendment No. 41: In page 82, subsection (2), lines 10 to 20, to delete paragraphs (b) to (d) and substitute the following:"(b) the rights and interests of any member affected, (c) the rights and interests of any other person who provided information to the member, (d) the rights and interests of any other person to whom the paper relates,".Sections 102(2) and (4) and 111(2) set out...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Brendan Howlin: I move amendment No. 42: In page 82, subsection (4), lines 43 to 47 and in page 83, lines 1 to 6, to delete paragraphs (b) to (d) and substitute the following:"(b) the rights and interests of any member affected, (c) the rights and interests of any other person who provided information to the member, (d) the rights and interests of any other person to whom the communication relates,".

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Brendan Howlin: I move amendment No. 43: In page 85, subsection (2), lines 34 and 35, to delete all words from and including "or" in line 34 down to and including "both" in line 35 and substitute the following:"(and irrespective of whether the definition of "official document" provided for in such rules and standing orders overlaps, whether in whole or in part, with the definition of "official document" in...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Brendan Howlin: In drafting the programme for Government both parties determined that we needed to ease the restriction on civil servants, and this section reflects what was agreed. It permits a civil servant to give evidence for the purpose of establishing facts and giving the committee a factual account of a matter. Deputy Donnelly wants to go further and allow civil servants give their views on policy....

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Brendan Howlin: Deputy McDonald is absolutely right, and it is clear in section 90. A civil servant, a member of the Permanent Defence Force or a garda may, if asked by a committee, gave a factual account of a matter, including evidence of anything said or communicated by any person during the course of events of which an account has been given. In essence, what informed the decision, which is what we...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Brendan Howlin: It is not the role of civil servants to decide what is good policy or not; their role is to advise the Minister and once the Minister makes a decision it becomes the departmental view. One can disaggregate all that went into it and cross-examine the Minister on how he or she came to the conclusion when he or she had various other options, but one cannot ask a civil servant what he or she...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Brendan Howlin: The previous section dealt with Part 2 inquiries; this deals with normal inquiries.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Brendan Howlin: Normal Oireachtas business.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Brendan Howlin: No; that is not true. It sets out procedures and sets out how an inquiry will be conducted. This is just the constraint on-----

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Brendan Howlin: Yes; the constraints are the same.

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