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Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Business of Joint Committee
No Consent, No Sale Bill 2019: Discussion
(2 Apr 2019)

Pearse Doherty: I welcome our guests to the session. When the Central Bank appeared before the committee last week, I outlined that the intention behind the Bill is not to affect the access to liquidity, passive securitisation or access to ECB collateral, and that will be easily addressed on Committee Stage. I would be surprised if other members had different opinions but that is up to them and the Bill is...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Business of Joint Committee
No Consent, No Sale Bill 2019: Discussion
(2 Apr 2019)

Pearse Doherty: It definitely would not because that goes to the core of the Bill, which is that the Bill would not allow without the borrower's consent the bank to sell on the loan to a vulture fund, and that would apply for existing contracts henceforth. That would potentially remove a tool, given that it would be unlikely for many borrowers to give their consent to vulture funds, which I will come to in...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Business of Joint Committee
No Consent, No Sale Bill 2019: Discussion
(2 Apr 2019)

Pearse Doherty: In response to earlier questions on the Bill, Mr. Tobin said that it may or may not cause an increase in mortgage interest rates. Which is it? The Department provided the committee with a written submission which was all over the media this morning and gives the impression that the Department had a crystal ball, which enabled it to determine that the Bill would result in higher mortgage...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Business of Joint Committee
No Consent, No Sale Bill 2019: Discussion
(2 Apr 2019)

Pearse Doherty: I do not want to nitpick but words are important. Mr. Tobin did not say, "it is likely to increase"; he said, "it will lead to." It is surprising that the Department was able to come to the same conclusion as the IBF.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Business of Joint Committee
No Consent, No Sale Bill 2019: Discussion
(2 Apr 2019)

Pearse Doherty: The Central Bank did not mention it in its opening statement. The conclusion is almost identical to the conclusion the Department reached when Deputy Michael McGrath was pushing through his legislation to regulate vulture funds. That legislation was enacted six months ago. Have interest rates increased, as warned?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Business of Joint Committee
No Consent, No Sale Bill 2019: Discussion
(2 Apr 2019)

Pearse Doherty: I do not want to be pedantic but what Mr. Tobin just said is different from what was said earlier. The Department issued a statement, which has been carried in the media, to the effect that this Bill will increase mortgage interest rates. In his opening statement, Mr. Tobin said that may or may not happen and he has now qualified that and said that it is likely it has the potential-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Business of Joint Committee
No Consent, No Sale Bill 2019: Discussion
(2 Apr 2019)

Pearse Doherty: In the submission delivered approximately half an hour ago, Mr. Tobin stated: "Our assessment is that the Bill will lead to higher mortgage interest rates", but the Department is not sure whether it will.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Business of Joint Committee
No Consent, No Sale Bill 2019: Discussion
(2 Apr 2019)

Pearse Doherty: It is likely to. Okay. In regard to the Consumer Protection (Regulation of Credit Servicing Firms) (Amendment) Act 2018, in Mr. Tobin's view, how is it the Department's observation did not materialise?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Business of Joint Committee
No Consent, No Sale Bill 2019: Discussion
(2 Apr 2019)

Pearse Doherty: Mr. Tobin did not answer my question, which I will rephrase. Six months on from the enactment of Deputy Michael McGrath's legislation why, in his view, did the warning made on the record at that time by the Department of Finance, namely, that that Bill would lead to higher interest rates on consumers, not materialise? One could argue that interest rates have fallen. Has the Department...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Business of Joint Committee
No Consent, No Sale Bill 2019: Discussion
(2 Apr 2019)

Pearse Doherty: I appreciate that the views being expressed are validly and genuinely held by the Department. I am just trying to tease out and test them. We will not fall out because of any of them.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Business of Joint Committee
No Consent, No Sale Bill 2019: Discussion
(2 Apr 2019)

Pearse Doherty: I will need the support of the Department and Central Bank in progressing this Bill through the Houses and signed into law by the President, because that is my intention. The regulatory framework for banks and vulture funds are not the same, which I believe underpins some of the assessment from the Department of Finance and the Central Bank. I do not dispute that. If Mr. Tobin had to...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Business of Joint Committee
No Consent, No Sale Bill 2019: Discussion
(2 Apr 2019)

Pearse Doherty: I think the smile on Mr. Tobin's face reveals a little more.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Business of Joint Committee
No Consent, No Sale Bill 2019: Discussion
(2 Apr 2019)

Pearse Doherty: I ask Mr. Sibley to respond to the question?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Business of Joint Committee
No Consent, No Sale Bill 2019: Discussion
(2 Apr 2019)

Pearse Doherty: I would, and do, give the same advice to individuals. I will not push Mr. Sibley any further on the question.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Business of Joint Committee
No Consent, No Sale Bill 2019: Discussion
(2 Apr 2019)

Pearse Doherty: That is a valid point. The issue here is that those who work at the coalface with borrowers and distressed debtors, for example, MABS, which was referenced in both opening statements, tell us that in approximately 75% of cases where loans have been sold advisors report that the sale has both slowed progress and limited options available to the borrower. That is the reality. If we were...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Business of Joint Committee
No Consent, No Sale Bill 2019: Discussion
(2 Apr 2019)

Pearse Doherty: I do not have the report in front of me, but from memory, one of the comments made about the report was that it is early days in terms of the vulture funds because the transfers only took place recently. Regardless of the CCMA, this creates a timing factor. Various steps have to be taken before the necessary legal proceedings.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Business of Joint Committee
No Consent, No Sale Bill 2019: Discussion
(2 Apr 2019)

Pearse Doherty: Since the report there has been a doubling of the number of family homes sold to vulture funds. We discussed this matter with the Central Bank last week. MABS, which is involved now, or the Irish Mortgage Holders Association or the Free Legal Advice Centre, are all telling us a very different story. Those organisations are saying that this is not good. In 75% of cases they say that...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Business of Joint Committee
No Consent, No Sale Bill 2019: Discussion
(2 Apr 2019)

Pearse Doherty: My concern here is not just for the individuals whose loans are about to be sold off. The Central Bank report of last April discussed those in long-term arrears of more than 720 days. The Central Bank itself has said that more than 50% of those people are likely to lose ownership of their homes, through voluntary or non-voluntary repossession. That is a significant number of people, and...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Business of Joint Committee
No Consent, No Sale Bill 2019: Discussion
(2 Apr 2019)

Pearse Doherty: May I ask a couple of questions to finish?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Business of Joint Committee
No Consent, No Sale Bill 2019: Discussion
(2 Apr 2019)

Pearse Doherty: I apologise because I had to take something in the Dáil Chamber for a few minutes but I will read the transcript of the portion of the meeting I missed. I particularly welcome the comments in the Central Bank's submission in appendix 3. It goes into the detail of some of the definitions and issues around enforcement and regulations, which is helpful as we continue to look at this...

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