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Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (15 Nov 2018)

David Cullinane: On the University of Limerick and Waterford Institute of Technology reports, might there be an opportunity to deal with those reports on the same day?

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (15 Nov 2018)

David Cullinane: Before we make a decision on how to approach it, on the report on Waterford IT by the Comptroller and Auditor General, it would be of benefit if we had a sense of the status of the more substantial report to be compiled by the Higher Education Authority, HEA, and the Department. They were awaiting legal advice from the Attorney General in that regard. If the report is months or a year from...

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (15 Nov 2018)

David Cullinane: Was it followed up?

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 9: Office of the Revenue Commissioners
Chapter 17: Revenue's Progress in Tackling Tobacco Smuggling
Chapter 18: Management of High Wealth Individuals' Tax Liabilities
Chapter 19: Corporation Tax Losses
(15 Nov 2018)

David Cullinane: I think we might all take liberties in asking questions about Brexit given where we are. I have one or two questions for Mr. Cody about that issue that will not take more than five minutes. I will then move on to the particular chapter of the Comptroller and Auditor General's report with which we are dealing. I assume that if Mr. Cody has not read the draft withdrawal agreement, he has...

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 9: Office of the Revenue Commissioners
Chapter 17: Revenue's Progress in Tackling Tobacco Smuggling
Chapter 18: Management of High Wealth Individuals' Tax Liabilities
Chapter 19: Corporation Tax Losses
(15 Nov 2018)

David Cullinane: Let me put to Mr. Cody what the European Commission is stating? I accept what he is saying, but the Commission is stating that in making the additional checks, there will be a need for some compliance checks with EU standards consistent with the level of risk to protect consumers, economic traders and businesses in the Single Market. The Commission is talking about additional checks and...

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 9: Office of the Revenue Commissioners
Chapter 17: Revenue's Progress in Tackling Tobacco Smuggling
Chapter 18: Management of High Wealth Individuals' Tax Liabilities
Chapter 19: Corporation Tax Losses
(15 Nov 2018)

David Cullinane: I have that.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 9: Office of the Revenue Commissioners
Chapter 17: Revenue's Progress in Tackling Tobacco Smuggling
Chapter 18: Management of High Wealth Individuals' Tax Liabilities
Chapter 19: Corporation Tax Losses
(15 Nov 2018)

David Cullinane: My final question about Brexit might be more difficult to answer. Nonetheless, it is pertinent and the question everybody will be asking. Mr. Cody is in a good position to answer it. He has said that as this is in the political sphere, we do not know what will happen. There is a draft agreement. Obviously, the majority want it to be implemented. In the event that it is not implemented...

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 9: Office of the Revenue Commissioners
Chapter 17: Revenue's Progress in Tackling Tobacco Smuggling
Chapter 18: Management of High Wealth Individuals' Tax Liabilities
Chapter 19: Corporation Tax Losses
(15 Nov 2018)

David Cullinane: Obviously, the Revenue Commissioners have already looked at that issue. Is that the case?

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 9: Office of the Revenue Commissioners
Chapter 17: Revenue's Progress in Tackling Tobacco Smuggling
Chapter 18: Management of High Wealth Individuals' Tax Liabilities
Chapter 19: Corporation Tax Losses
(15 Nov 2018)

David Cullinane: The question I am asking is more technical. World Trade Organization rules are the ones to which we have signed up. Obviously, certain obligations follow from them. If these rules kick in, what actual practical obligations, if any, will be placed on the State, Revenue and the Customs service on this side of the Border?

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 9: Office of the Revenue Commissioners
Chapter 17: Revenue's Progress in Tackling Tobacco Smuggling
Chapter 18: Management of High Wealth Individuals' Tax Liabilities
Chapter 19: Corporation Tax Losses
(15 Nov 2018)

David Cullinane: That is the response and it answers the question. I am saying there are no automatic legal procedural responses which would have to kick in. There will be political responses in deciding what will happen. Is that accurate?

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 9: Office of the Revenue Commissioners
Chapter 17: Revenue's Progress in Tackling Tobacco Smuggling
Chapter 18: Management of High Wealth Individuals' Tax Liabilities
Chapter 19: Corporation Tax Losses
(15 Nov 2018)

David Cullinane: Mr. Cody could take a leaf out of the book of the Comptroller and Auditor General who does not watch any of these proceedings because he does not have a television. I can recommend that course of action to Mr. Cody.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 9: Office of the Revenue Commissioners
Chapter 17: Revenue's Progress in Tackling Tobacco Smuggling
Chapter 18: Management of High Wealth Individuals' Tax Liabilities
Chapter 19: Corporation Tax Losses
(15 Nov 2018)

David Cullinane: Let us get to the reason we are here - the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General, page 222 of which relates to high wealth individuals. The report states, "...information relating to assets is not required for income tax returns. This makes identifying HWIs and assessing associated risks challenging for revenue bodies". Will Mr. McCarthy expand on what exactly that means?

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 9: Office of the Revenue Commissioners
Chapter 17: Revenue's Progress in Tackling Tobacco Smuggling
Chapter 18: Management of High Wealth Individuals' Tax Liabilities
Chapter 19: Corporation Tax Losses
(15 Nov 2018)

David Cullinane: Is it just a statement of fact? Is Mr. McCarthy saying that might be a problem?

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 9: Office of the Revenue Commissioners
Chapter 17: Revenue's Progress in Tackling Tobacco Smuggling
Chapter 18: Management of High Wealth Individuals' Tax Liabilities
Chapter 19: Corporation Tax Losses
(15 Nov 2018)

David Cullinane: I wish to raise a point with Mr. Cody. Is there any benefit in looking at that? I have no wish to stray into policy or the political sphere, but in recent times there has been debate about whether we should have a wealth tax. One reason it is difficult to have that debate is we cannot get an answer to the question of how much could be generated from such a tax. That is because we do not...

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 9: Office of the Revenue Commissioners
Chapter 17: Revenue's Progress in Tackling Tobacco Smuggling
Chapter 18: Management of High Wealth Individuals' Tax Liabilities
Chapter 19: Corporation Tax Losses
(15 Nov 2018)

David Cullinane: Let us suppose the State was to take a decision to introduce a wealth tax on assets over a certain amount. Would Revenue be in a position at this stage to forecast how much tax such a measure would generate? Could such forecasts be based on knowledge of what assets are owned by people?

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 9: Office of the Revenue Commissioners
Chapter 17: Revenue's Progress in Tackling Tobacco Smuggling
Chapter 18: Management of High Wealth Individuals' Tax Liabilities
Chapter 19: Corporation Tax Losses
(15 Nov 2018)

David Cullinane: I thank Mr. Cody. On page 222, it is also stated that artificial capital losses are a prominent feature in many tax avoidance schemes. I imagine that when the Comptroller and Auditor General spoke about artificial capital losses, he was referring to spurious losses that are not real.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 9: Office of the Revenue Commissioners
Chapter 17: Revenue's Progress in Tackling Tobacco Smuggling
Chapter 18: Management of High Wealth Individuals' Tax Liabilities
Chapter 19: Corporation Tax Losses
(15 Nov 2018)

David Cullinane: Can Mr. McCarthy provide examples of how that works or in what types of areas it happens?

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 9: Office of the Revenue Commissioners
Chapter 17: Revenue's Progress in Tackling Tobacco Smuggling
Chapter 18: Management of High Wealth Individuals' Tax Liabilities
Chapter 19: Corporation Tax Losses
(15 Nov 2018)

David Cullinane: Could Mr. Cody provide examples?

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 9: Office of the Revenue Commissioners
Chapter 17: Revenue's Progress in Tackling Tobacco Smuggling
Chapter 18: Management of High Wealth Individuals' Tax Liabilities
Chapter 19: Corporation Tax Losses
(15 Nov 2018)

David Cullinane: Are there examples of successful cases that have been brought in the context of artificial capital losses as tax avoidance?

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 9: Office of the Revenue Commissioners
Chapter 17: Revenue's Progress in Tackling Tobacco Smuggling
Chapter 18: Management of High Wealth Individuals' Tax Liabilities
Chapter 19: Corporation Tax Losses
(15 Nov 2018)

David Cullinane: I have two more questions. I appreciate that the witnesses responses are lengthy because of the questions being put but perhaps this one is a bit more distinct. If I am reading it right Mr. McCarthy raised the issue, or concern, about how high wealth individuals are classified in the State, which starts at €50 million. Is Mr. McCarthy saying this is outside the European norms and...

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