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Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 24 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2015
(21 Jul 2016)

Róisín Shortall: I wish to pursue that issue, if I may. Off-balance sheet is one aspect of it, but obviously being able to access European funds is an important aspect from the viewpoint of investment in public housing. Given the huge demand for public housing and the fact that money has not been available for that in recent years, I wonder why the NTMA would not have pursued that as a possibility. If...

Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 24 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2015
(21 Jul 2016)

Róisín Shortall: But is Mr. O'Kelly saying that it would be possible?

Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 24 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2015
(21 Jul 2016)

Róisín Shortall: Yes, but is Mr. O'Kelly saying that the NTMA was never asked to assist in developing a decent public housing programme?

Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 24 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2015
(21 Jul 2016)

Róisín Shortall: It is very strange that that has been the case. Therefore, the perception is true that there are public European funds available for investment in housing and we are not drawing them down.

Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 24 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2015
(21 Jul 2016)

Róisín Shortall: So I am right in thinking that. Okay, thanks. Mr. O'Kelly talks about an off-balance sheet vehicle for delivering public housing, not using European funds. One of the sites earmarked for that is in my own constituency in the Finglas area, but people just do not have a clue what it is about. How developed is that proposal? The small bit of experience that there is in public private...

Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 24 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2015
(21 Jul 2016)

Róisín Shortall: Yes.

Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 24 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2015
(21 Jul 2016)

Róisín Shortall: As regards the three bundles of 500 houses that Mr. O'Kelly spoke about, where is that proposal currently?

Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 24 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2015
(21 Jul 2016)

Róisín Shortall: Where is that?

Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 24 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2015
(21 Jul 2016)

Róisín Shortall: Fine, but are they local authority houses?

Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 24 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2015
(21 Jul 2016)

Róisín Shortall: Therefore, NAMA has a development of 500 local authority houses. Does the NTMA have any role in voicing its views on the viability of a project like that?

Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 24 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2015
(21 Jul 2016)

Róisín Shortall: Policy-wise it certainly does not fit-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 24 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2015
(21 Jul 2016)

Róisín Shortall: -----with the Government's statement on the social mix, so I just wonder if that is going forward. The other question was about PPPs and value for money.

Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 24 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2015
(21 Jul 2016)

Róisín Shortall: Yes. I mean the M3, for example.

Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 24 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2015
(21 Jul 2016)

Róisín Shortall: Would Mr. O'Kelly accept that it is not true to say that PPPs give value for money to the taxpayer? Can one make a blanket statement like that? The M3 would be an example of where it did not work in the taxpayer's interest.

Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 24 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2015
(21 Jul 2016)

Róisín Shortall: Just to stick with that example, perhaps Mr. McCarthy can say if there is any attempt to look back on a project like that one, which turned out to cost a lot more.

Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 24 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2015
(21 Jul 2016)

Róisín Shortall: I would not mind coming back to the State Claims Agency if it is appropriate to ask a question.

Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 24 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2015
(21 Jul 2016)

Róisín Shortall: I have a question on the State Claims Agency.

Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 24 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2015
(21 Jul 2016)

Róisín Shortall: Other members have spoken earlier about serious problems with this and with the whole question of an apology and the delay which the Chairman raised. Families are put through the ringer. Given the level of legal fees that are paid out I know there are several legal companies around the country that would not survive if it was not for medical negligence claims. It is a crazy basis on which...

Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 24 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2015
(21 Jul 2016)

Róisín Shortall: What has the experience been elsewhere where they have introduced those protocols? Mr. Breen says there is a reduction in the length of time it takes to settle but in terms of the actual compensation payments and the legal costs, what has the effect of the protocols been?

Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 24 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2015
(21 Jul 2016)

Róisín Shortall: Are the two parties required to adhere to the protocols?

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