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Public Accounts Committee: Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General 2014
Vote 21: Prisons
Vote 24: Department of Justice and Equality
Chapter 9: Development of Prison Accommodation in Dublin
(5 Nov 2015)

John McGuinness: Very well.

Public Accounts Committee: Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General 2014
Vote 21: Prisons
Vote 24: Department of Justice and Equality
Chapter 9: Development of Prison Accommodation in Dublin
(5 Nov 2015)

John McGuinness: I am not sure where this falls but this week I received an e-mail that struck me. It was from an individual who had been summonsed as a prosecution witness in a multiple larceny and drugs case that required a special sitting of the Circuit Court. Present was a judge, a 12-man jury, five gardaí, senior counsel and a solicitor for the State, a senior counsel, junior counsel and solicitor...

Public Accounts Committee: Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General 2014
Vote 21: Prisons
Vote 24: Department of Justice and Equality
Chapter 9: Development of Prison Accommodation in Dublin
(5 Nov 2015)

John McGuinness: While I can understand that, my point is that before assembling this group, which I am sure is a costly affair, there should be some assurance that whosoever was to appear in court would do so.

Public Accounts Committee: Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General 2014
Vote 21: Prisons
Vote 24: Department of Justice and Equality
Chapter 9: Development of Prison Accommodation in Dublin
(5 Nov 2015)

John McGuinness: Is it a fact that for a significant number of individuals who received speeding fines and who declare they did not receive them in the post, their cases are struck out in the courts? What is the figure in this regard?

Public Accounts Committee: Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General 2014
Vote 21: Prisons
Vote 24: Department of Justice and Equality
Chapter 9: Development of Prison Accommodation in Dublin
(5 Nov 2015)

John McGuinness: There is loss of revenue to the State.

Public Accounts Committee: Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General 2014
Vote 21: Prisons
Vote 24: Department of Justice and Equality
Chapter 9: Development of Prison Accommodation in Dublin
(5 Nov 2015)

John McGuinness: Can Mr. Waters put a financial loss on that percentage?

Public Accounts Committee: Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General 2014
Vote 21: Prisons
Vote 24: Department of Justice and Equality
Chapter 9: Development of Prison Accommodation in Dublin
(5 Nov 2015)

John McGuinness: To give them another chance.

Public Accounts Committee: Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General 2014
Vote 21: Prisons
Vote 24: Department of Justice and Equality
Chapter 9: Development of Prison Accommodation in Dublin
(5 Nov 2015)

John McGuinness: There is another figure in the accounts. I might call Deputy Costello. It relates to State pathology debtors. An amount of €246,026 owed to the Department in respect of post mortem examination fees from local authorities was written off as unrecoverable. How did that operate? It is figure 6.8.

Public Accounts Committee: Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General 2014
Vote 21: Prisons
Vote 24: Department of Justice and Equality
Chapter 9: Development of Prison Accommodation in Dublin
(5 Nov 2015)

John McGuinness: I note from the 2012 accounts that it was €246,026.

Public Accounts Committee: Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General 2014
Vote 21: Prisons
Vote 24: Department of Justice and Equality
Chapter 9: Development of Prison Accommodation in Dublin
(5 Nov 2015)

John McGuinness: It was €159,194 prior to 2000, with the balance of €89,832 relating to the 2000-06 period. Why did local authorities not pay? The amounts are dated, but they are Government departments in the system that collect money from taxpayers in the form of commercial rates and so on. If I did not pay them my property tax or water charge, which is now with Irish Water, they would raise...

Public Accounts Committee: Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General 2014
Vote 21: Prisons
Vote 24: Department of Justice and Equality
Chapter 9: Development of Prison Accommodation in Dublin
(5 Nov 2015)

John McGuinness: Then collect the money. Why should they get off when the ordinary citizen is pestered every day of the week with letters from Irish Water and duplications in collection efforts? If people do not pay commercial rates, they are chased for them, yet local authorities believe it is okay not to pay the almost €250,000 that they owe the Department. I do not care what year the money relates to.

Public Accounts Committee: Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General 2014
Vote 21: Prisons
Vote 24: Department of Justice and Equality
Chapter 9: Development of Prison Accommodation in Dublin
(5 Nov 2015)

John McGuinness: Is a list of which local authorities owe this money attached to the accounts?

Public Accounts Committee: Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General 2014
Vote 21: Prisons
Vote 24: Department of Justice and Equality
Chapter 9: Development of Prison Accommodation in Dublin
(5 Nov 2015)

John McGuinness: That does not make it any better.

Public Accounts Committee: Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General 2014
Vote 21: Prisons
Vote 24: Department of Justice and Equality
Chapter 9: Development of Prison Accommodation in Dublin
(5 Nov 2015)

John McGuinness: Local authorities collect moneys. They get grants from the Government. They are not poor bodies. They have debts, but some have millions of euro stashed away. They can increase the rents they charge old age pensioners by €3 at the drop of a hat. That is no problem to them, but they will not pay the money that they owe the Department of Justice and Equality. It should pursue them-----

Public Accounts Committee: Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General 2014
Vote 21: Prisons
Vote 24: Department of Justice and Equality
Chapter 9: Development of Prison Accommodation in Dublin
(5 Nov 2015)

John McGuinness: -----or name and shame them.

Public Accounts Committee: Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General 2014
Vote 21: Prisons
Vote 24: Department of Justice and Equality
Chapter 9: Development of Prison Accommodation in Dublin
(5 Nov 2015)

John McGuinness: Is it not funny that, when these authorities discover that they owe money to Revenue, they suddenly front up and pay penalties and interest, yet they do not mind not paying the Department because it is giving them a soft way out? I would like a list of those that owe the Department money. I do not care since when. Let us see who owed money over the period in question. It might be the...

Public Accounts Committee: Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General 2014
Vote 21: Prisons
Vote 24: Department of Justice and Equality
Chapter 9: Development of Prison Accommodation in Dublin
(5 Nov 2015)

John McGuinness: I will not prolong this discussion, but how far can the Department go? How far would Revenue go to collect its debt? How far will other agencies of the State go with people who are marginalised, poor or in distress to collect their debts?

Public Accounts Committee: Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General 2014
Vote 21: Prisons
Vote 24: Department of Justice and Equality
Chapter 9: Development of Prison Accommodation in Dublin
(5 Nov 2015)

John McGuinness: How far will the bank go to collect its debt even though it was bailed out by the taxpayer? In this case, these organisations are only partially within the remit of the Comptroller and Auditor General, as local authorities are not accountable. That is another cop-out. They should be named so that we know with which we are dealing.

Public Accounts Committee: Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General 2014
Vote 21: Prisons
Vote 24: Department of Justice and Equality
Chapter 9: Development of Prison Accommodation in Dublin
(5 Nov 2015)

John McGuinness: There was €7.9 million worth of purchases that did not adhere to the rules for procurement. I note that 11 of the items reported had a total value of €3.3 million. Why was the procurement process ignored or not used?

Public Accounts Committee: Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General 2014
Vote 21: Prisons
Vote 24: Department of Justice and Equality
Chapter 9: Development of Prison Accommodation in Dublin
(5 Nov 2015)

John McGuinness: Will Mr Donnellan, please, explain what a 40/02 is for those who might be listening and not know what it is?

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