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Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (28 Feb 2019)

David Cullinane: In this case a lease cost €8 million, including the fit-out, which was not signed off on by the board. Would that be a normal procedure?

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (28 Feb 2019)

David Cullinane: Okay. Will it be dealt with in the 2016 and 2017 audit?

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (28 Feb 2019)

David Cullinane: I am seeking clarification on the follow-up meeting with the Department. We should ask that the Department come back in-----

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (28 Feb 2019)

David Cullinane: The Department of Health. Have we set a date for that meeting?

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (28 Feb 2019)

David Cullinane: They do not mind.

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (28 Feb 2019)

David Cullinane: We could change one word in the document given to each member and whichever one was published-----

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (28 Feb 2019)

David Cullinane: As some of the issues are related to policy, will we be circulating the responses to the relevant sectoral committees?

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Housing, Planning and Local Government
(28 Feb 2019)

David Cullinane: I welcome Mr. McCarthy and his team, and Mr. Murray and Ms Maguire. I shall start with the Rebuilding Ireland report on social housing delivery that the committee has received, for which I thank the Department. On page 2 there is a breakdown of the overall delivery by delivery methods such as build, void, acquisition, leasing, rental accommodation scheme, RAS and housing assistance payment,...

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Housing, Planning and Local Government
(28 Feb 2019)

David Cullinane: Yes. A 96% target was achieved for builds and the target for acquisitions was exceeded at 290%. The figures are interesting because some are under the targets with leasing reaching 50% of the target. There were more acquisitions. If one has to move from one delivery method to the other does the Department of Housing, Planning and Local Government have to get permission from the Department...

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Housing, Planning and Local Government
(28 Feb 2019)

David Cullinane: Maybe I can make my question a bit sharper. Has the Department of Housing, Planning and Local Government ever had to seek permission from the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform to move from one delivery method to the other to meet targets?

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Housing, Planning and Local Government
(28 Feb 2019)

David Cullinane: What does "engage with" mean? I asked if Mr. McCarthy's Department had to seek permission. What is the methodology? Mr. McCarthy said "engage". Does the Department of Housing, Planning and Local Government inform the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform of what it is doing? Does Mr. McCarthy's Department need the permission? Is there a tug of war or tension between the Departments...

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Housing, Planning and Local Government
(28 Feb 2019)

David Cullinane: Has Mr. McCarthy read the European Commission's country-specific report on housing? An article in The Irish Timesfrom 27 February states: "The European Commission has strongly criticised the Government’s housing policy, suggesting rapidly rising rents, insufficient residential construction and a lack of affordable and social housing were driving increased rates of homelessnes [sic] in...

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Housing, Planning and Local Government
(28 Feb 2019)

David Cullinane: Does Mr. McCarthy accept its findings?

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Housing, Planning and Local Government
(28 Feb 2019)

David Cullinane: The European Commission's report, and the homelessness figures published yesterday by Mr. McCarthy's Department showing record levels of almost 10,000 people, children and families, who are homeless does not suggest that the Department is getting to grips with the housing crisis. We have record levels of homelessness and, as the report says, a lack of residential construction and lack of...

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Housing, Planning and Local Government
(28 Feb 2019)

David Cullinane: Okay, but the problem is that the targets - in my view - lack ambition. One can set whatever targets one likes but if they do not aspire to substantially deal with the housing crisis, one can say the targets are substantially being met. Given the level of homelessness, however, and the European Commission's report the evidence suggests that targets are not sufficient and they need to be...

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Housing, Planning and Local Government
(28 Feb 2019)

David Cullinane: Sorry Mr. Murray but we are dealing with 2018. We are always being told and promised that there will be more delivery in 2019, 2020 and 2021. We can only judge each local authority on what they have delivered this year and in previous years. We are in the midst of a housing crisis. I believe that Mr. Murray's Limerick City and County Council achieved 80% of its target.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Housing, Planning and Local Government
(28 Feb 2019)

David Cullinane: There were 112 new builds for Limerick City and County Council. This includes local authority approved housing bodies and Part V units. Does Mr. Murray believe that 122 units in a city and county the size of Limerick that are real social housing builds is an acceptable number? The target was only 80% met. It is not an acceptable target, and it is not acceptable to not meet the target and...

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Housing, Planning and Local Government
(28 Feb 2019)

David Cullinane: Can Mr. Murray stand over the 112 new builds?

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Housing, Planning and Local Government
(28 Feb 2019)

David Cullinane: I would imagine that part and parcel of that overall figure given by Mr. Murray is RAS and HAP also.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Housing, Planning and Local Government
(28 Feb 2019)

David Cullinane: Yes. Absolutely - when I talk about new builds. I will come back to Mr. McCarthy shortly on the total spend on RAS and HAP. Moving on from Limerick, Galway City Council only met 25% of its new build target and only 27% of its overall target, which would include builds, acquisitions and leasing. Westmeath County Council only met 34% of its target and Wicklow County Council only met 55% of...

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