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Public Accounts Committee: Implications of CervicalCheck Revelations (Resumed) (14 Jun 2018)

Seán Fleming: Is Dr. Scally happy with that?

Public Accounts Committee: Implications of CervicalCheck Revelations (Resumed) (14 Jun 2018)

Seán Fleming: I invite Mr. Gleeson to make a brief statement.

Public Accounts Committee: Implications of CervicalCheck Revelations (Resumed) (14 Jun 2018)

Seán Fleming: I call Deputy Jonathan O'Brien who has ten minutes on this specific item.

Public Accounts Committee: Implications of CervicalCheck Revelations (Resumed) (14 Jun 2018)

Seán Fleming: The Deputy has five minutes.

Public Accounts Committee: Implications of CervicalCheck Revelations (Resumed) (14 Jun 2018)

Seán Fleming: Before I call the next speaker, I wish to clarify this assumption bit. I read from the letter of the State Claims Agency. In fact, did all the treating clinicians inform the women at that point?

Public Accounts Committee: Implications of CervicalCheck Revelations (Resumed) (14 Jun 2018)

Seán Fleming: How did Mr. Gleeson come to the assumption that they had done so? Just answer that question. Mr. Gleeson's entire answer here today is based on his assumption that they had. Everybody now knows that they were not so informed. How did he arrive at that assumption, which we now know was not matched by reality? The assumption made by Mr. Gleeson is the issue here. He has used the word...

Public Accounts Committee: Implications of CervicalCheck Revelations (Resumed) (14 Jun 2018)

Seán Fleming: When did Mr. Gleeson first become aware that women had not been informed? We have seen correspondence from Limerick and from various meetings where there were issues about who was to inform the people affected, whether CervicalCheck, the GPs or the clinicians. When did Mr. Gleeson become aware of the issue of how the people affected were to be informed?

Public Accounts Committee: Implications of CervicalCheck Revelations (Resumed) (14 Jun 2018)

Seán Fleming: When did that happen?

Public Accounts Committee: Implications of CervicalCheck Revelations (Resumed) (14 Jun 2018)

Seán Fleming: The witness was aware in 2017 that there was an issue with informing the women affected.

Public Accounts Committee: Implications of CervicalCheck Revelations (Resumed) (14 Jun 2018)

Seán Fleming: The witness accepts that his assumption was incorrect.

Public Accounts Committee: Implications of CervicalCheck Revelations (Resumed) (14 Jun 2018)

Seán Fleming: The witness is appearing before the Committee of Public Accounts. I am addressing this point to Mr. Connaghan as well. Assumptions were made that somebody else had acted in a particular way, and we now know that was not a valid assumption. I do not deny that it was arrived at in good faith. However, the assumptions made are the reason the witnesses are here today, and the reason there has...

Public Accounts Committee: Implications of CervicalCheck Revelations (Resumed) (14 Jun 2018)

Seán Fleming: That is my personal view. I said at the beginning that I expect that answers will be given in good faith. We are in no position to assume anything other than good faith at this point, and we have no basis for saying anything different. I am operating on the basis that what I have been told has been said in good faith. However, the assumption the witnesses arrived at was not valid. Does...

Public Accounts Committee: Implications of CervicalCheck Revelations (Resumed) (14 Jun 2018)

Seán Fleming: This is the kernel of the issue. We are here because the witness is hanging on the assumption that all people were informed. Were they so informed at that point in time?

Public Accounts Committee: Implications of CervicalCheck Revelations (Resumed) (14 Jun 2018)

Seán Fleming: Was the assumption valid at that time?

Public Accounts Committee: Implications of CervicalCheck Revelations (Resumed) (14 Jun 2018)

Seán Fleming: Mr. Gleeson mentioned the open disclosure policy in the HSE and he is hanging his assumption on that policy. Is that correct?

Public Accounts Committee: Implications of CervicalCheck Revelations (Resumed) (14 Jun 2018)

Seán Fleming: This committee received letters from the HSE months earlier on the open disclosure policy. It is on file - I am sure the letters are here in front of me - that the HSE highlighted that the Civil Liability (Amendment) Act 2017 had not yet commenced and this was proving an obstacle to open disclosure. The witness had to know that the section on open disclosure has still not been commenced....

Public Accounts Committee: Implications of CervicalCheck Revelations (Resumed) (14 Jun 2018)

Seán Fleming: This exchange is not doing the HSE or Mr. Connaghan any good. That is not a finding but my personal observation. We should have been able to deal with this matter in a much more up-front manner and much more clearly. We find ourselves arguing about words and whether a fair assumption was made. There are women listening to this discussion which calls to mind the argument as to how many...

Public Accounts Committee: Implications of CervicalCheck Revelations (Resumed) (14 Jun 2018)

Seán Fleming: I will move on to Deputy Murphy. I thought this was going to be a cleaner operation so that the women who are watching could get some confidence in the HSE's openness and transparency. I have not felt that today so far.

Public Accounts Committee: Implications of CervicalCheck Revelations (Resumed) (14 Jun 2018)

Seán Fleming: Deputy Murphy has one minute left.

Public Accounts Committee: Implications of CervicalCheck Revelations (Resumed) (14 Jun 2018)

Seán Fleming: I call Deputy Cullinane. Members have indicated in the following sequence: Deputy Cullinane, Deputy Kelly, Deputy Connolly and Deputy MacSharry.

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