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Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 18 - Shared Services
Vote 41 - Office of Government Procurement
Chapter 4 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Chapter 5 - Management of Government Grants
Chapter 6 - Payroll Accrual for National Accounts
Chapter 7 - National Lottery Fund
(19 Nov 2015)

John McGuinness: To answer the question, had it gone the other way, they probably would not have come back to the Department.

Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 18 - Shared Services
Vote 41 - Office of Government Procurement
Chapter 4 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Chapter 5 - Management of Government Grants
Chapter 6 - Payroll Accrual for National Accounts
Chapter 7 - National Lottery Fund
(19 Nov 2015)

John McGuinness: That is not the issue. The reality is that it did go that way.

Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 18 - Shared Services
Vote 41 - Office of Government Procurement
Chapter 4 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Chapter 5 - Management of Government Grants
Chapter 6 - Payroll Accrual for National Accounts
Chapter 7 - National Lottery Fund
(19 Nov 2015)

John McGuinness: It is now €22 million.

Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 18 - Shared Services
Vote 41 - Office of Government Procurement
Chapter 4 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Chapter 5 - Management of Government Grants
Chapter 6 - Payroll Accrual for National Accounts
Chapter 7 - National Lottery Fund
(19 Nov 2015)

John McGuinness: Upwards of €22 million.

Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 18 - Shared Services
Vote 41 - Office of Government Procurement
Chapter 4 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Chapter 5 - Management of Government Grants
Chapter 6 - Payroll Accrual for National Accounts
Chapter 7 - National Lottery Fund
(19 Nov 2015)

John McGuinness: Yes, so it is upwards of €22 million, and local authorities must now cut their services, as is the case in County Kilkenny, and raise the rates by 5% to compensate for the relief that some of the biggest companies in the country have received.

Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 18 - Shared Services
Vote 41 - Office of Government Procurement
Chapter 4 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Chapter 5 - Management of Government Grants
Chapter 6 - Payroll Accrual for National Accounts
Chapter 7 - National Lottery Fund
(19 Nov 2015)

John McGuinness: I am making the point that this seems to be out of kilter with Mr. Watt's remark that those who are least well off and most marginalised would be supported. They are now going to be targeted by local authorities. It is a fact. It is there in the Estimates. The small businesses in the counties are being asked to pay an extra 5%. I am not asking Mr. Watt to go into policy areas. I am just...

Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 18 - Shared Services
Vote 41 - Office of Government Procurement
Chapter 4 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Chapter 5 - Management of Government Grants
Chapter 6 - Payroll Accrual for National Accounts
Chapter 7 - National Lottery Fund
(19 Nov 2015)

John McGuinness: The Minister did say that he would restore them and that he felt that abolishing town councils was a bad idea, so there could be a difference of opinion in the Department. It may once again go to the Department of Finance in terms of a decision relating to the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform.

Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 18 - Shared Services
Vote 41 - Office of Government Procurement
Chapter 4 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Chapter 5 - Management of Government Grants
Chapter 6 - Payroll Accrual for National Accounts
Chapter 7 - National Lottery Fund
(19 Nov 2015)

John McGuinness: I have a few more questions. Last week, we dealt with legal fees. One issue that emerged from the conversation was that the legal services are outsourced. There was a suggestion that in order to capture all of what was spent on legal fees, there should be some co-ordination with the Attorney General, the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform and so on. Is that suggestion being considered?

Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 18 - Shared Services
Vote 41 - Office of Government Procurement
Chapter 4 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Chapter 5 - Management of Government Grants
Chapter 6 - Payroll Accrual for National Accounts
Chapter 7 - National Lottery Fund
(19 Nov 2015)

John McGuinness: That answers the question. A similar issue arises in regard to third level institutions, including universities and institutes of technology, some of which have a contract through the HEA for auditing.

Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 18 - Shared Services
Vote 41 - Office of Government Procurement
Chapter 4 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Chapter 5 - Management of Government Grants
Chapter 6 - Payroll Accrual for National Accounts
Chapter 7 - National Lottery Fund
(19 Nov 2015)

John McGuinness: To my mind, it is not satisfactory because it seems that having the one audit across all third level institutions is not working for other reasons. These reasons are better spelled out in the various complaints we have received from various bodies, ranging from the VECs to the institutes of technology and universities. That is certainly a matter Mr. Watt should examine because sometimes...

Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 18 - Shared Services
Vote 41 - Office of Government Procurement
Chapter 4 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Chapter 5 - Management of Government Grants
Chapter 6 - Payroll Accrual for National Accounts
Chapter 7 - National Lottery Fund
(19 Nov 2015)

John McGuinness: Mr. Watt will not appear before us again. This committee, like the Dáil, is running to the end of its term, but this issue concerning institutes of technology, universities and so on will not go away. It needs to be reviewed and I am anxious to bring it to the attention of the Department today. The other matter concerned having one financial system for the HSE. I acknowledge it is...

Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 18 - Shared Services
Vote 41 - Office of Government Procurement
Chapter 4 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Chapter 5 - Management of Government Grants
Chapter 6 - Payroll Accrual for National Accounts
Chapter 7 - National Lottery Fund
(19 Nov 2015)

John McGuinness: In his report Mr. Watt mentioned the Ombudsman, freedom of information and all of the various changes in that regard. My point concerns the work of committees of these Houses. There was a single taxpayer in whose case the Ombudsman recommended full payment on a particular issue. A half payment was made by the Revenue Commissioners. Ever since committees of the Houses, mainly those...

Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 18 - Shared Services
Vote 41 - Office of Government Procurement
Chapter 4 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Chapter 5 - Management of Government Grants
Chapter 6 - Payroll Accrual for National Accounts
Chapter 7 - National Lottery Fund
(19 Nov 2015)

John McGuinness: That is an example of someone deliberately ignoring the hearings of a committee which were signed off on by a number of Chairmen. The matter concerns every party to the case. The payment should be reviewed and someone should ask about it. I do not know why the money is not being paid, particularly given the independence of the Ombudsman and the various reviews undertaken in the Houses and...

Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 18 - Shared Services
Vote 41 - Office of Government Procurement
Chapter 4 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Chapter 5 - Management of Government Grants
Chapter 6 - Payroll Accrual for National Accounts
Chapter 7 - National Lottery Fund
(19 Nov 2015)

John McGuinness: That is the nature of the beast; it is democracy and it happens in the Houses.

Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 18 - Shared Services
Vote 41 - Office of Government Procurement
Chapter 4 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Chapter 5 - Management of Government Grants
Chapter 6 - Payroll Accrual for National Accounts
Chapter 7 - National Lottery Fund
(19 Nov 2015)

John McGuinness: Yes, it can. It happens in the Dáil and the Seanad, as well as in other committees, and I cannot see it changing any time soon. In fact, I have seen a marked change in the opposite direction. The conversation that was had with the Deputy earlier is one that we could have about politicians, believe it or not. The point is we cannot change that. It is the way it is, and those who come...

Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 18 - Shared Services
Vote 41 - Office of Government Procurement
Chapter 4 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Chapter 5 - Management of Government Grants
Chapter 6 - Payroll Accrual for National Accounts
Chapter 7 - National Lottery Fund
(19 Nov 2015)

John McGuinness: When Secretaries General come in here, it is far better that they have that type of conversation rather than trying to hide behind some fact or other.

Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 18 - Shared Services
Vote 41 - Office of Government Procurement
Chapter 4 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Chapter 5 - Management of Government Grants
Chapter 6 - Payroll Accrual for National Accounts
Chapter 7 - National Lottery Fund
(19 Nov 2015)

John McGuinness: Otherwise, it will not change. That brings us to the point about local government. Reports, including value-for money reports, concerning local government are produced but they never get debated in the real public sense of what happens in this committee. The public sees that and if we ask people whether they want that type of secrecy or an open public debate, they want to see the latter....

Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 18 - Shared Services
Vote 41 - Office of Government Procurement
Chapter 4 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Chapter 5 - Management of Government Grants
Chapter 6 - Payroll Accrual for National Accounts
Chapter 7 - National Lottery Fund
(19 Nov 2015)

John McGuinness: Is it agreed to dispose of Votes, 11, 12, 18 and 41 and Chapters 4 to 7, inclusive? Agreed. I thank Mr. Watt and his officials for attending the meeting. I have enjoyed our exchanges in the past few years. It has been good and healthy for our democracy.

Written Answers — Department of Social Protection: Community Employment Schemes Operation (17 Nov 2015)

John McGuinness: 164. To ask the Tánaiste and Minister for Social Protection her plans to relax the eligibility criteria for entry to a community employment scheme, with particular reference to persons under 25 years of age; if persons signing for credits will have their time considered in the context of qualifying for community employment; if persons under 35 years of age will qualify for three years on...

Written Answers — Department of Social Protection: Social Welfare Benefits (17 Nov 2015)

John McGuinness: 183. To ask the Tánaiste and Minister for Social Protection the reason a social protection benefit to a person (details supplied) in County Carlow was recently cut. [40619/15]

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