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Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2014
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2014
Finance Accounts 2014
(3 Dec 2015)

John McGuinness: If she would-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2014
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2014
Finance Accounts 2014
(3 Dec 2015)

John McGuinness: To me that is a staggering amount of money.

Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2014
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2014
Finance Accounts 2014
(3 Dec 2015)

John McGuinness: It is still an extraordinary amount of money, the more I think about it and the reasons for it, given what people went through in terms of their employment and the FEMPI legislation and all of that. This is beginning to creep in at a level within the banks and NAMA that gives it the look of a cosy set of people being looked after. When people object to it or talk about it, very little...

Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2014
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2014
Finance Accounts 2014
(3 Dec 2015)

John McGuinness: It does not make-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2014
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2014
Finance Accounts 2014
(3 Dec 2015)

John McGuinness: It is a retention payment.

Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2014
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2014
Finance Accounts 2014
(3 Dec 2015)

John McGuinness: Therefore it is under a different name. This argument will go on now. For example, a reward model for the Central Bank is being considered. A consultant has been or will be brought on board to define what this reward model might look like. Other people in the Central Bank are bemoaning the public pay restrictions and so on. Who is paying the consultant to do this? Why is the...

Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2014
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2014
Finance Accounts 2014
(3 Dec 2015)

John McGuinness: So part of the consultant's brief will be to ensure that whatever reward model is finally decided upon, will be shoehorned somewhere into the FEMPI legislation, but it will achieve its end because it has done already in the context of the Central Bank where people have benefited. It is a retention description being used in NAMA. I reiterate that we need to urge caution here.

Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2014
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2014
Finance Accounts 2014
(3 Dec 2015)

John McGuinness: On what Deputy Connaughton said about the credit unions and regulation, everyone understands the need for regulation. They are rebuilding their organisation and different branch structures and so on but the regulation that is beginning to have an impact on them is having a negative effect on those who borrow, particularly those on the edge between the moneylender and the credit union. The...

Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2014
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2014
Finance Accounts 2014
(3 Dec 2015)

John McGuinness: Has Ms Nolan had discussions with the public banking forum using the model from Germany with her section in the Department?

Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2014
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2014
Finance Accounts 2014
(3 Dec 2015)

John McGuinness: Ms Nolan has met the group-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2014
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2014
Finance Accounts 2014
(3 Dec 2015)

John McGuinness: -----and it is now at the level of being on the Minister's desk.

Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2014
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2014
Finance Accounts 2014
(3 Dec 2015)

John McGuinness: On the letter from Revenue that was mentioned, which Ms Nolan referred to in her replies, is it possible to have a copy of that letter?

Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2014
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2014
Finance Accounts 2014
(3 Dec 2015)

John McGuinness: Okay. In terms of IBRC and the cost of that inquiry, we expressed concern to officials from the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform regarding the fact that it is open ended. Where stands that now?

Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2014
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2014
Finance Accounts 2014
(3 Dec 2015)

John McGuinness: Does the Department not write the cheque?

Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2014
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2014
Finance Accounts 2014
(3 Dec 2015)

John McGuinness: It comes out of the-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2014
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2014
Finance Accounts 2014
(3 Dec 2015)

John McGuinness: In regard to that, the Department is responsible for Revenue. Revenue collects the taxes. When it collects that tax and it goes to, say, the Taoiseach's Department, relative to the payment of the inquiry, does the Department express a view on it?

Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2014
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2014
Finance Accounts 2014
(3 Dec 2015)

John McGuinness: Let me put it a different way. The Department is responsible for collecting the taxes. Is that right?

Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2014
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2014
Finance Accounts 2014
(3 Dec 2015)

John McGuinness: He collects taxes. The Department sets the policy-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2014
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2014
Finance Accounts 2014
(3 Dec 2015)

John McGuinness: -----so it gets the taxes. Is the Department concerned about what has been revealed in the past ten or 15 years by the Comptroller and Auditor General regarding the poor value for money achieved by some Departments in terms of inefficiencies? Is it satisfied, for example, with regard to the €2.6 billion, which is taxpayers' money regardless of where it comes from, that will go to...

Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2014
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2014
Finance Accounts 2014
(3 Dec 2015)

John McGuinness: They are not. They are questions that should occupy minds in the Department of Finance as well as Mr. Watt's Department because if the mistakes were minimised and everything was counted properly, the Department might not have as much tax to collect from those who are hard pressed to pay it in the first instance. If the money collected within a business was being spent incorrectly, the head...

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