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Public Accounts Committee: 2019 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 10 - Tax Appeals Commission
Chapter 14 - Management of Tax Appeals
(8 Jul 2021)

Brian Stanley: Apologies have been received from Deputies Carroll MacNeill, MacSharry and Carthy. Deputy Verona Murphy is speaking in the Dáil but will join us later. I welcome everybody to the meeting. Due to the situation with Covid-19, only the clerk, support staff and I are in the committee room. Members of the committee are attending remotely from within the precincts of Leinster House. This...

Public Accounts Committee: 2019 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 10 - Tax Appeals Commission
Chapter 14 - Management of Tax Appeals
(8 Jul 2021)

Brian Stanley: I call Ms Maney to make her opening statement.

Public Accounts Committee: 2019 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 10 - Tax Appeals Commission
Chapter 14 - Management of Tax Appeals
(8 Jul 2021)

Brian Stanley: The lead speaker from the committee is Deputy Catherine Murphy, who has 15 minutes. I will give her a reminder after 12 minutes. Following that, each member has seven minutes.

Public Accounts Committee: 2019 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 10 - Tax Appeals Commission
Chapter 14 - Management of Tax Appeals
(8 Jul 2021)

Brian Stanley: We will have a second round of questioning. I call Deputy Hourigan.

Public Accounts Committee: 2019 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 10 - Tax Appeals Commission
Chapter 14 - Management of Tax Appeals
(8 Jul 2021)

Brian Stanley: Thank you, Deputy Murphy. There will be a second round and I will let you back in if you have another question. Deputy Colm Burke has seven minutes. I will give him a reminder after five minutes.

Public Accounts Committee: 2019 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 10 - Tax Appeals Commission
Chapter 14 - Management of Tax Appeals
(8 Jul 2021)

Brian Stanley: Any Deputies who wish to come in for a second round of questions, should use their hand signal and we will try to accommodate everyone. Ms Maney is very welcome and I thank her for the information she has supplied. I listened to the details she outlined. It was on 4 August that she got into the office and started to get things moving. Obviously, it has been a difficult year. Spending...

Public Accounts Committee: 2019 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 10 - Tax Appeals Commission
Chapter 14 - Management of Tax Appeals
(8 Jul 2021)

Brian Stanley: Okay. We have a low corporation tax at 12.5% compared to other countries, and I agree with that. To put it bluntly, it drives the public up the walls, and particularly PAYE workers, that the money is gone before one gets to see it. One does not get to see it except on the payslip at the end of the month. There is strong consensus politically on the 12.5%, but the 12.5%, as we know from...

Public Accounts Committee: 2019 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 10 - Tax Appeals Commission
Chapter 14 - Management of Tax Appeals
(8 Jul 2021)

Brian Stanley: The quantum outstanding at present in unsettled cases is €4.2 billion. Is that correct?

Public Accounts Committee: 2019 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 10 - Tax Appeals Commission
Chapter 14 - Management of Tax Appeals
(8 Jul 2021)

Brian Stanley: The top five are multinational companies. I thank you for confirming that. They are heading for almost €3 billion, at €2.8 billion plus, in terms of what they owe. Out of all the cases being appealed, there are five companies out of the thousands that pay corporation tax - five multinational companies - that account for almost three quarters of the total sum. It is an...

Public Accounts Committee: 2019 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 10 - Tax Appeals Commission
Chapter 14 - Management of Tax Appeals
(8 Jul 2021)

Brian Stanley: It presents a substantial challenge for the commission.

Public Accounts Committee: 2019 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 10 - Tax Appeals Commission
Chapter 14 - Management of Tax Appeals
(8 Jul 2021)

Brian Stanley: With regard to the largest case of €1.64 billion, the company sought to have the determination overturned in the court. That was unsuccessful. The CEO of that company, speaking recently, said that he believed the figure "was not even real any more". I know the witness has to be careful here. He went on to say that it should be zero. It would indicate that the State, the Revenue...

Public Accounts Committee: 2019 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 10 - Tax Appeals Commission
Chapter 14 - Management of Tax Appeals
(8 Jul 2021)

Brian Stanley: I thank you for those answers. The commission certainly has been making progress, and I compliment Ms Maney and the staff on that. They do a very important job. There is a longer period of time for the determination of the larger cases. Ms Maney outlined that there is a grading system for over €1 million, over €10 million and so forth. Is it the case that some of the very...

Public Accounts Committee: 2019 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 10 - Tax Appeals Commission
Chapter 14 - Management of Tax Appeals
(8 Jul 2021)

Brian Stanley: The O'Donoghue report set out the staffing requirements. Since 2019, the number of staff doubled, albeit from a very low base. Ms Maney outlined that she has 33 staff. She gave some figures at the beginning and I apologise for bringing her back over this again but I want to be clear on it. There are four commissioners.

Public Accounts Committee: 2019 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 10 - Tax Appeals Commission
Chapter 14 - Management of Tax Appeals
(8 Jul 2021)

Brian Stanley: There are 4.5 whole-time equivalents and there are 33 staff who are mainly administration.

Public Accounts Committee: 2019 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 10 - Tax Appeals Commission
Chapter 14 - Management of Tax Appeals
(8 Jul 2021)

Brian Stanley: How many staff in the Tax Appeals Commission have legal training?

Public Accounts Committee: 2019 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 10 - Tax Appeals Commission
Chapter 14 - Management of Tax Appeals
(8 Jul 2021)

Brian Stanley: Ms Maney said earlier that she needs ten or 12 commissioners.

Public Accounts Committee: 2019 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 10 - Tax Appeals Commission
Chapter 14 - Management of Tax Appeals
(8 Jul 2021)

Brian Stanley: I turn to the types of cases and companies which may have wrongly classified workers for PRSI contributions, that is, where they were classed as having an S contribution as self-employed when they should have been classified as PAYE when Revenue and the Tax Appeals Commission make a judgment on these. How many companies are involved in such cases? Many of the cases related to corporation...

Public Accounts Committee: 2019 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 10 - Tax Appeals Commission
Chapter 14 - Management of Tax Appeals
(8 Jul 2021)

Brian Stanley: Ms Maney should send a note to the committee please on the number of companies where there are cases of unsettled tax where it relates to the misclassification of PRSI in those cases, as well as the quantum of that.

Public Accounts Committee: 2019 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 10 - Tax Appeals Commission
Chapter 14 - Management of Tax Appeals
(8 Jul 2021)

Brian Stanley: Would it be more than 5% of the commission's work, for example?

Public Accounts Committee: 2019 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 10 - Tax Appeals Commission
Chapter 14 - Management of Tax Appeals
(8 Jul 2021)

Brian Stanley: Therefore it is possibly less than 5%.

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