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Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Chapter 14 - Procurement by the Health Service Executive
Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2013
(23 Apr 2015)

Mary Lou McDonald: I apologise for my absence for most of the meeting. In his opening statement and making reference to the management letter and the observations and audit of the Comptroller and Auditor General Mr. O'Brien referred to the establishment of a national financial controls assurance group. Will he elaborate on this? Who is in it and when was it established?

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Chapter 14 - Procurement by the Health Service Executive
Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2013
(23 Apr 2015)

Mary Lou McDonald: When was its first meeting held?

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Chapter 14 - Procurement by the Health Service Executive
Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2013
(23 Apr 2015)

Mary Lou McDonald: Last month.

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Chapter 14 - Procurement by the Health Service Executive
Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2013
(23 Apr 2015)

Mary Lou McDonald: Is this envisaged as a permanent structure?

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Chapter 14 - Procurement by the Health Service Executive
Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2013
(23 Apr 2015)

Mary Lou McDonald: On the issue of procurement, figures have been set out which indicate that, for one reason or another, not all of which are entirely clear, tenders were not subject to the normal procurement requirements and processes. In his statement Mr. O'Brien referred to the "outs", as it were, in respect of non-compliance with what would be considered to be standard procurement procedure.

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Chapter 14 - Procurement by the Health Service Executive
Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2013
(23 Apr 2015)

Mary Lou McDonald: Yes. What I am seeking is reassurance that it is the position of the HSE that there be full compliance with standard procurement processes and rules. Is that the objective?

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Chapter 14 - Procurement by the Health Service Executive
Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2013
(23 Apr 2015)

Mary Lou McDonald: Is there not a tighter timeframe for or a greater sense of urgency in addressing these issues? For example, of a sample of 100 cases with a value of €2.2 million, which represents just a proportion of the spend, 36% were not subject to procurement processes. A timeframe of how many years has been set?

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Chapter 14 - Procurement by the Health Service Executive
Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2013
(23 Apr 2015)

Mary Lou McDonald: In some of the document on Mr. Swords' checklist, he set out some of those. I am not trying to discount them.

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Chapter 14 - Procurement by the Health Service Executive
Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2013
(23 Apr 2015)

Mary Lou McDonald: For the purposes of this committee, Mr. Swords is offering a three-year timeframe in terms of full compliance with standard procurement.

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Chapter 14 - Procurement by the Health Service Executive
Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2013
(23 Apr 2015)

Mary Lou McDonald: It was found that 36% of the sample I quoted was not subject to correct procurement procedures. I would put it to Mr. Swords that he might struggle to find an organisation that tells him it is serious about abiding by procurement standards and regulations that would have a figure of 36% for non-compliance. I do not want to get into a to and fro.

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Chapter 14 - Procurement by the Health Service Executive
Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2013
(23 Apr 2015)

Mary Lou McDonald: I hear what Mr. Swords is saying in terms of the initiatives taken but I had directed the question to Mr. Mulvany because he is now the chair of this national financial controls assurance group. Would it be a fair depiction to state that he has a three-year target in terms of having the correct arrangements in place? I am asking Mr. Mulvany because he is the chair of this assurance group.

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Chapter 14 - Procurement by the Health Service Executive
Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2013
(23 Apr 2015)

Mary Lou McDonald: Did the group discuss this at its March meeting?

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Chapter 14 - Procurement by the Health Service Executive
Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2013
(23 Apr 2015)

Mary Lou McDonald: Mr. Mulvany instanced procurement.

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Chapter 14 - Procurement by the Health Service Executive
Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2013
(23 Apr 2015)

Mary Lou McDonald: Everyone in this room and beyond knows that there are few achieving 100% in anything in life but I do not feel assured that the chair of the assurance group has a more firm view in terms of achieving strong compliance with procurement.

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Chapter 14 - Procurement by the Health Service Executive
Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2013
(23 Apr 2015)

Mary Lou McDonald: What did the group discuss at its first meeting?

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Chapter 14 - Procurement by the Health Service Executive
Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2013
(23 Apr 2015)

Mary Lou McDonald: When does Mr. Mulvany imagine the group will get to the procurement issues?

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Chapter 14 - Procurement by the Health Service Executive
Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2013
(23 Apr 2015)

Mary Lou McDonald: I understand all of that. Naturally enough, Mr. O'Brien made reference to the establishment of Mr. Mulvany's group and he is vesting a level of authority in and a level of expectation around this group to deal with a range of issues, including procurement. I am trying to get that sense of assurance from Mr. Mulvany that the issue features and that there will be targets. Mr. Mulvany is...

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Chapter 14 - Procurement by the Health Service Executive
Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2013
(23 Apr 2015)

Mary Lou McDonald: None of us wants to be sitting here with audit report after audit report from the Comptroller and Auditor General, saying, "Here we go again, we still have a systemic issue around compliance with procurement standards, norms and procedures in the HSE". I want Mr. Mulvany to tell me that he does not want to be there either.

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Chapter 14 - Procurement by the Health Service Executive
Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2013
(23 Apr 2015)

Mary Lou McDonald: There are also two pieces to it. The notion of efficient procurement is waste reduction and minimisation and doing away with waste entirely in the ideal scenario.

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Chapter 14 - Procurement by the Health Service Executive
Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2013
(23 Apr 2015)

Mary Lou McDonald: I am not referring to that goal in itself. Here I am referring to the HSE, if I could use the term, swinging into compliance with the procurement rules, regulations, standards and norms. That is what I am talking to Mr. Mulvany about. The raison d'êtrefor this approach is to minimise waste - we take that as read. The issue of reputational damage or the issue of concern when audited...

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