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Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Housing, Planning and Local Government
(21 Feb 2019)

David Cullinane: That brings me to Dr. Rhodes. Will she expand on that point? What role will the regulation play in terms of ownership of the properties, given that the State played a significant part in making sure these properties were funded and then they are in the full ownership of the approved housing bodies? What protections are there to ensure those properties remain in use for public and social...

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Housing, Planning and Local Government
(21 Feb 2019)

David Cullinane: That might be the case for some. How many approved housing bodies are there?

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Housing, Planning and Local Government
(21 Feb 2019)

David Cullinane: They are very diverse. My point is that some of them might have an ethos but we just do not know-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Housing, Planning and Local Government
(21 Feb 2019)

David Cullinane: If at some point they owned the properties, the charities legislation would not prevent them from using the properties for a different purpose.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Housing, Planning and Local Government
(21 Feb 2019)

David Cullinane: My next question is about the notion that funding for approved housing bodies could go off-balance sheet. Am I correct that it is the stated intention of the Department, or at least its desire, that this would be the case?

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Housing, Planning and Local Government
(21 Feb 2019)

David Cullinane: I should have been more specific. I meant off the State's balance sheet. That is the stated intention of the Department but it would have to get approval from EUROSTAT for that to happen.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Housing, Planning and Local Government
(21 Feb 2019)

David Cullinane: Do the witnesses know the position with that at present? The Central Statistics Office, CSO, would have a role and EUROSTAT would have the final say. What opinion do the witnesses have on that as an ambition? Do they know the position with it?

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Housing, Planning and Local Government
(21 Feb 2019)

David Cullinane: That is really why I wanted to tease out the first part as to how they are funded. The second part concerns the ambition to get it off the State's balance sheet. I imagine the mixed funding model of 30% CALF funding, and then a bigger portion of the 70% of funding that comes from the Housing Finance Agency at present coming from the private sector, is in part, driven by the ambition to get...

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Housing, Planning and Local Government
(21 Feb 2019)

David Cullinane: Do the AHBs charge market rents?

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Housing, Planning and Local Government
(21 Feb 2019)

David Cullinane: I imagine it would be an impediment in trying to take it off the State's balance sheet. If they are not market rents, EUROSTAT might have a concern. It would also have a difficulty with the fact that, at present, it is predominantly State funded. Who allocates the properties?

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Housing, Planning and Local Government
(21 Feb 2019)

David Cullinane: The State.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Housing, Planning and Local Government
(21 Feb 2019)

David Cullinane: Are increases in the sector driven by market rents?

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Housing, Planning and Local Government
(21 Feb 2019)

David Cullinane: Are rents charged by the approved housing bodies based on similar models to that used by councils-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Housing, Planning and Local Government
(21 Feb 2019)

David Cullinane: -----the differential rent system?

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Housing, Planning and Local Government
(21 Feb 2019)

David Cullinane: I do not really have a strong opinion on it either way but my point is that if the ambition is to get these off the State's balance sheet, EUROSTAT will look at issues such as how they are not based on market rents, how it is the local authorities that allocate homes and how the rents charged are based somewhat on differential rents and the model Mr. Hannigan has outlined. Is there then the...

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Housing, Planning and Local Government
(21 Feb 2019)

David Cullinane: Mr. Hannigan's responses are helpful and I thank him for them. He may have answered my next question. From his organisation's perspective, does he support the ambition that approved housing bodies be taken off the State's balance sheet? Having listened to what he said, is he confident that this can be done, if it is something he supports, without having a significant impact on how approved...

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Housing, Planning and Local Government
(21 Feb 2019)

David Cullinane: The problem is that in other areas outside housing where EUROSTAT has come into conflict with an ambition of the State, certainly where there is a heavy State influence, it is not as simple as that. A few tweaks will not always do it.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Housing, Planning and Local Government
(21 Feb 2019)

David Cullinane: While I need not raise some of the bigger challenges the State has faced, we have seen this. I hear what Mr. Hannigan is saying-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Housing, Planning and Local Government
(21 Feb 2019)

David Cullinane: In order that the people who are listening are clear, what is the big advantage in taking it off the State's balance sheet?

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Housing, Planning and Local Government
(21 Feb 2019)

David Cullinane: In what year did it occur?

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