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Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Budget 2024 Expenditure Ceiling and Resource Allocation for the Department of Health and HSE: Discussion (14 Nov 2023)

John McGuinness: Let us take as an example Aldi, Lidl, Dunnes Stores or some other business that is represented all over the country, has a huge number of staff, has thousands of different products on its shelves and has different moneys coming in from different quarters and staff to control. How do they manage, but the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform cannot?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Budget 2024 Expenditure Ceiling and Resource Allocation for the Department of Health and HSE: Discussion (14 Nov 2023)

John McGuinness: When were the health boards abolished?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Budget 2024 Expenditure Ceiling and Resource Allocation for the Department of Health and HSE: Discussion (14 Nov 2023)

John McGuinness: Yes. It was 2005. That was 18 years ago and the Department is still talking about them. This is shocking because it oversees reform.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Budget 2024 Expenditure Ceiling and Resource Allocation for the Department of Health and HSE: Discussion (14 Nov 2023)

John McGuinness: Mr. Moloney thinks.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Budget 2024 Expenditure Ceiling and Resource Allocation for the Department of Health and HSE: Discussion (14 Nov 2023)

John McGuinness: Is that commitment coming from the Department by way of demanding better accountability from the HSE or is it coming from the HSE or the Department of Health? Who is more concerned? Why are we in this every single year? It has been like this every single year for 25 years.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Budget 2024 Expenditure Ceiling and Resource Allocation for the Department of Health and HSE: Discussion (14 Nov 2023)

John McGuinness: Twenty-five years ago, an issue was raised at the Committee of Public Accounts. It was all about a technology system that would report on everything to do with the management of the health boards, the HSE or whatever it was. There must be systems available in the commercial world that can manage big business operations, stocks, staff, you name it. Yet, the officials do not know how many...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Budget 2024 Expenditure Ceiling and Resource Allocation for the Department of Health and HSE: Discussion (14 Nov 2023)

John McGuinness: Does Mr. Moloney know what I would do with the Department? I would put it on a budget of zero. I would ask the officials to prove every figure that they are asking for because they do not deserve to get the €22 billion based on what they have told me. This is how I measure things. Mr. Moloney said to the committee that we have the best-funded health service in Europe. Deputy...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Budget 2024 Expenditure Ceiling and Resource Allocation for the Department of Health and HSE: Discussion (14 Nov 2023)

John McGuinness: Sorry, representatives of the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform were not there.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Budget 2024 Expenditure Ceiling and Resource Allocation for the Department of Health and HSE: Discussion (14 Nov 2023)

John McGuinness: Representatives from Mr. Moloney's Department were not to be there?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Budget 2024 Expenditure Ceiling and Resource Allocation for the Department of Health and HSE: Discussion (14 Nov 2023)

John McGuinness: Mr. Moloney is the Secretary General.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Budget 2024 Expenditure Ceiling and Resource Allocation for the Department of Health and HSE: Discussion (14 Nov 2023)

John McGuinness: But representatives of Mr. Moloney's Department were meant to be there. It says here that management parties were to be there.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Budget 2024 Expenditure Ceiling and Resource Allocation for the Department of Health and HSE: Discussion (14 Nov 2023)

John McGuinness: Representatives of the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform were not there.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Budget 2024 Expenditure Ceiling and Resource Allocation for the Department of Health and HSE: Discussion (14 Nov 2023)

John McGuinness: I am here as a legislator, chairing this committee. We are all very busy people, whether we are Senators or Deputies. Joe Bloggs can stop me on the street and tell me that we are not delivering in the health service. I am given these examples and therefore I have to take them to Mr. Moloney. If I was in the HSE, I would expect the managers to understand that this is the case. Anyone...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Budget 2024 Expenditure Ceiling and Resource Allocation for the Department of Health and HSE: Discussion (14 Nov 2023)

John McGuinness: That is generally for mistakes, is it not? It is for issues within the service.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Budget 2024 Expenditure Ceiling and Resource Allocation for the Department of Health and HSE: Discussion (14 Nov 2023)

John McGuinness: I do not want to belittle it, because it could be the result of an error, but it could also be bad management. It is an area that should be looked at. It is an area that companies should look at and ask why it is happening. Is that what the Department does with the committee?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Budget 2024 Expenditure Ceiling and Resource Allocation for the Department of Health and HSE: Discussion (14 Nov 2023)

John McGuinness: For the future, for this year up to December and into next year, will all of the acute services be able to function to deliver the services they are expected to deliver, or will there be a problem? Have they enough money to do everything that needs to be done in the services in the acute settings?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Budget 2024 Expenditure Ceiling and Resource Allocation for the Department of Health and HSE: Discussion (14 Nov 2023)

John McGuinness: That is not the question I asked. I asked specifically about the acute services.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Budget 2024 Expenditure Ceiling and Resource Allocation for the Department of Health and HSE: Discussion (14 Nov 2023)

John McGuinness: So, the Department is happy that they have enough money to do that?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Budget 2024 Expenditure Ceiling and Resource Allocation for the Department of Health and HSE: Discussion (14 Nov 2023)

John McGuinness: Does the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform share that view?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Budget 2024 Expenditure Ceiling and Resource Allocation for the Department of Health and HSE: Discussion (14 Nov 2023)

John McGuinness: I did not ask about a decision. Before it goes to a decision, there has to be some sort of discussion between the Department and the Minister, surely. Does he share Mr. Moloney's view that the service is well-funded and can deliver?

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