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Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts (Resumed)
Chapter 23: Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency (Resumed)
National Treasury Management Agency: Financial Statements 2017 (Resumed)
(12 Jul 2018)

Seán Fleming: The original claim?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts (Resumed)
Chapter 23: Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency (Resumed)
National Treasury Management Agency: Financial Statements 2017 (Resumed)
(12 Jul 2018)

Seán Fleming: I appreciate that. When the meeting is over, I will ask the secretariat to convey that directly to Deputy O'Brien in the event that he does not hear it, so that he is aware of that. Deputy Kelly asked a question. Mr. Breen knows not to mention any names in public. I do not have to remind him of that.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts (Resumed)
Chapter 23: Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency (Resumed)
National Treasury Management Agency: Financial Statements 2017 (Resumed)
(12 Jul 2018)

Seán Fleming: The point is well made and Mr. Breen is going to release it. Deputies Catherine Murphy, Catherine Connolly and Kate O'Connell had indicated. I will have some questions myself. I will let members in for a second round and I will be working with a set of financial statements.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts (Resumed)
Chapter 23: Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency (Resumed)
National Treasury Management Agency: Financial Statements 2017 (Resumed)
(12 Jul 2018)

Seán Fleming: To what page are you referring?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts (Resumed)
Chapter 23: Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency (Resumed)
National Treasury Management Agency: Financial Statements 2017 (Resumed)
(12 Jul 2018)

Seán Fleming: The contract was not renewed in accordance with compliance. That is the company.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts (Resumed)
Chapter 23: Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency (Resumed)
National Treasury Management Agency: Financial Statements 2017 (Resumed)
(12 Jul 2018)

Seán Fleming: Who comes up with the names to send to the Minister?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts (Resumed)
Chapter 23: Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency (Resumed)
National Treasury Management Agency: Financial Statements 2017 (Resumed)
(12 Jul 2018)

Seán Fleming: I am sure we will be here for at least half an hour. I said "at least".

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts (Resumed)
Chapter 23: Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency (Resumed)
National Treasury Management Agency: Financial Statements 2017 (Resumed)
(12 Jul 2018)

Seán Fleming: Could the witness from the Department of Finance respond because it is not part of the NTMA?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts (Resumed)
Chapter 23: Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency (Resumed)
National Treasury Management Agency: Financial Statements 2017 (Resumed)
(12 Jul 2018)

Seán Fleming: For the benefit of the Deputy, when we had the Department of Finance in some time ago, we asked that specific question on the ultimate surplus. The representatives from the Department stated it had not made any decision or proposals on the matter. We asked then what were the EU rules in respect of this because the Government's general position is that any money recovered from financial...

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts (Resumed)
Chapter 23: Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency (Resumed)
National Treasury Management Agency: Financial Statements 2017 (Resumed)
(12 Jul 2018)

Seán Fleming: Yes. The next question we asked is whether the use of the NAMA surplus would require EU clearance because it would have to be done within EUROSTAT rules and we were told that no discussions had taken place with Europe yet. We asked what Europe's position was expected to be. The Department said that there is no other NAMA or anything like it in Europe so it does not believe Europe has even...

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts (Resumed)
Chapter 23: Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency (Resumed)
National Treasury Management Agency: Financial Statements 2017 (Resumed)
(12 Jul 2018)

Seán Fleming: NAMA will be before the committee on the first occasion on which we meet after the recess.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts (Resumed)
Chapter 23: Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency (Resumed)
National Treasury Management Agency: Financial Statements 2017 (Resumed)
(12 Jul 2018)

Seán Fleming: I will ask a few questions myself. I use the word "few" lightly. I will start with the national debt. I have the report in front of me. I will ask Mr. McCarthy to confirm some information that is out there and we can comment on it. I want to give the people who are watching a full and clear picture. They get bits and pieces from different questions but I like to give the overall view....

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts (Resumed)
Chapter 23: Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency (Resumed)
National Treasury Management Agency: Financial Statements 2017 (Resumed)
(12 Jul 2018)

Seán Fleming: Moving on to page 13, the debt, cash balances and gross debt are shown. I note the cash balances the agency is holding seem to have declined in recent years. In 2012, there was €50 billion in cash balances. All the figures are not given on that page, but I note from the chart the cash balances now held are only half of that amount. It would probably cost the agency to hold cash...

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts (Resumed)
Chapter 23: Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency (Resumed)
National Treasury Management Agency: Financial Statements 2017 (Resumed)
(12 Jul 2018)

Seán Fleming: I will come to those.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts (Resumed)
Chapter 23: Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency (Resumed)
National Treasury Management Agency: Financial Statements 2017 (Resumed)
(12 Jul 2018)

Seán Fleming: That is 5% of the agency's debt?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts (Resumed)
Chapter 23: Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency (Resumed)
National Treasury Management Agency: Financial Statements 2017 (Resumed)
(12 Jul 2018)

Seán Fleming: When we had a difficulty accessing the market, essentially during the three years when the troika were here, 2011 to 2013, we were sitting on in excess of €50 billion in cash reserves. The agency thought we needed to have that because we might not have been able to raise such funds down the road. The troika came for a three-year period. Mr. O'Kelly might tell me if I am right in my...

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts (Resumed)
Chapter 23: Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency (Resumed)
National Treasury Management Agency: Financial Statements 2017 (Resumed)
(12 Jul 2018)

Seán Fleming: Cash balances or other assets.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts (Resumed)
Chapter 23: Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency (Resumed)
National Treasury Management Agency: Financial Statements 2017 (Resumed)
(12 Jul 2018)

Seán Fleming: What are the "other assets" referenced in page 13? The light green segment of the chart states "cash balances or other assets". Does that refer to bank shares?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts (Resumed)
Chapter 23: Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency (Resumed)
National Treasury Management Agency: Financial Statements 2017 (Resumed)
(12 Jul 2018)

Seán Fleming: This is an NTMA document. The witnesses must be able to tell me to what that chart is referring.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts (Resumed)
Chapter 23: Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency (Resumed)
National Treasury Management Agency: Financial Statements 2017 (Resumed)
(12 Jul 2018)

Seán Fleming: The bank shares would have been worth very little. What does Mr. O'Kelly mean by liquid assets other than cash? This is the agency's chart. There seems to quite an amount shown in the green segment of it during 2012 and 2013.

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