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Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 9 - Revenue Commissioners
Chapter 12 - Controls over the Temporary Wage Subsidy Scheme
Chapter 13 - Revenue's Management of Suspicious Transactions Reports
(2 Dec 2021)

Brian Stanley: That is fair enough. Mr. Cody mentioned workers at the lowest end in this sector. The Committee of Public Accounts is concerned about this because these are some of the most vulnerable workers in the State. Was this discontinued because it could be seen as unlawful under Irish law because it takes a whole group of workers as self-employed and that cannot be done in Irish law, as...

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 9 - Revenue Commissioners
Chapter 12 - Controls over the Temporary Wage Subsidy Scheme
Chapter 13 - Revenue's Management of Suspicious Transactions Reports
(2 Dec 2021)

Brian Stanley: Therefore it had no impact on the decision at all.

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 9 - Revenue Commissioners
Chapter 12 - Controls over the Temporary Wage Subsidy Scheme
Chapter 13 - Revenue's Management of Suspicious Transactions Reports
(2 Dec 2021)

Brian Stanley: Okay. I refer to withholding tax on couriers' expenses. Some Revenue documents refer to withholding tax several times. The deal included a flat-rate expenses allowance for couriers. It was a system exclusively for employees. It is itemised on Revenue's website. Flat-rate expenses allow workers to claim back costs. Nowhere in the 1997 tax deal with representatives of the courier sector...

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 9 - Revenue Commissioners
Chapter 12 - Controls over the Temporary Wage Subsidy Scheme
Chapter 13 - Revenue's Management of Suspicious Transactions Reports
(2 Dec 2021)

Brian Stanley: I understand that. I think people would have appreciated at the time that it was something of a wild west situation where many people were not registered for tax, not on the books, being paid through cash and so on. The problem with the deal was that it de facto made all couriers self-employed. If an employee wanted to try to change that, it would be very difficult. The power...

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 9 - Revenue Commissioners
Chapter 12 - Controls over the Temporary Wage Subsidy Scheme
Chapter 13 - Revenue's Management of Suspicious Transactions Reports
(2 Dec 2021)

Brian Stanley: Does Mr. Cody accept there is a question around how legally correct this was, given the advice from the Chief State Solicitor, Mr. Mark Connaughton, in 2009? In the Denny case, a category of workers were taken as being self-employed. Does Mr. Cody accept that what happened there may be legally questionable?

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 9 - Revenue Commissioners
Chapter 12 - Controls over the Temporary Wage Subsidy Scheme
Chapter 13 - Revenue's Management of Suspicious Transactions Reports
(2 Dec 2021)

Brian Stanley: I am not asking what you did. I am asking if you accept that-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 9 - Revenue Commissioners
Chapter 12 - Controls over the Temporary Wage Subsidy Scheme
Chapter 13 - Revenue's Management of Suspicious Transactions Reports
(2 Dec 2021)

Brian Stanley: Do you accept it might be legally questionable?

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 9 - Revenue Commissioners
Chapter 12 - Controls over the Temporary Wage Subsidy Scheme
Chapter 13 - Revenue's Management of Suspicious Transactions Reports
(2 Dec 2021)

Brian Stanley: Mr. Cody mentioned to Deputy Munster that neither revenue nor taxation was lost. However, the employer's PRSI contribution is different for a self-employed worker than for a PAYE worker. We all know that. Has Revenue done a calculation of the differential? It is a whole sector. It is being wound down and I see in the papers the witnesses supplied for today that it is down to two firms....

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 9 - Revenue Commissioners
Chapter 12 - Controls over the Temporary Wage Subsidy Scheme
Chapter 13 - Revenue's Management of Suspicious Transactions Reports
(2 Dec 2021)

Brian Stanley: It is a different question I am asking. If these workers-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 9 - Revenue Commissioners
Chapter 12 - Controls over the Temporary Wage Subsidy Scheme
Chapter 13 - Revenue's Management of Suspicious Transactions Reports
(2 Dec 2021)

Brian Stanley: I am not asking you to accept an argument.

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 9 - Revenue Commissioners
Chapter 12 - Controls over the Temporary Wage Subsidy Scheme
Chapter 13 - Revenue's Management of Suspicious Transactions Reports
(2 Dec 2021)

Brian Stanley: I am asking you to give an answer on this and maybe I am not putting it clearly enough. If the workers in that sector were employees as opposed to being grouped together and counted as self-employed from 1997 up to the discontinuation of the scheme, there is a huge differential there in PRSI contributions to the State. I ask for a "Yes" or "No" answer. Has Revenue done a calculation of the...

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 9 - Revenue Commissioners
Chapter 12 - Controls over the Temporary Wage Subsidy Scheme
Chapter 13 - Revenue's Management of Suspicious Transactions Reports
(2 Dec 2021)

Brian Stanley: That is fair enough. That is fine.

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 9 - Revenue Commissioners
Chapter 12 - Controls over the Temporary Wage Subsidy Scheme
Chapter 13 - Revenue's Management of Suspicious Transactions Reports
(2 Dec 2021)

Brian Stanley: Could I ask Mr. Cody to come back to the Deputy in writing on that question? He has a calculation to make. I want to allow the other members to contribute.

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 9 - Revenue Commissioners
Chapter 12 - Controls over the Temporary Wage Subsidy Scheme
Chapter 13 - Revenue's Management of Suspicious Transactions Reports
(2 Dec 2021)

Brian Stanley: Very briefly.

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 9 - Revenue Commissioners
Chapter 12 - Controls over the Temporary Wage Subsidy Scheme
Chapter 13 - Revenue's Management of Suspicious Transactions Reports
(2 Dec 2021)

Brian Stanley: I want to let in the Comptroller and Auditor General.

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 9 - Revenue Commissioners
Chapter 12 - Controls over the Temporary Wage Subsidy Scheme
Chapter 13 - Revenue's Management of Suspicious Transactions Reports
(2 Dec 2021)

Brian Stanley: I want to let Mr. McCarthy in briefly. Two other committee members also want to contribute.

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 9 - Revenue Commissioners
Chapter 12 - Controls over the Temporary Wage Subsidy Scheme
Chapter 13 - Revenue's Management of Suspicious Transactions Reports
(2 Dec 2021)

Brian Stanley: I will ask about Perrigo's tax settlement in respect of the 2013 period. The original figure was €1.636 billion which, according to details in the correspondence, was the assessment set out by Revenue at the time. It related to intellectual property. As I understand it, there was a court judgment and the judge agreed with Revenue on the figure and the classification. The court...

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 9 - Revenue Commissioners
Chapter 12 - Controls over the Temporary Wage Subsidy Scheme
Chapter 13 - Revenue's Management of Suspicious Transactions Reports
(2 Dec 2021)

Brian Stanley: I have read the wording of what the judge said.

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 9 - Revenue Commissioners
Chapter 12 - Controls over the Temporary Wage Subsidy Scheme
Chapter 13 - Revenue's Management of Suspicious Transactions Reports
(2 Dec 2021)

Brian Stanley: I have read what the judge said and the direct quotation Mr. Cody included in the correspondence. I thank him for that. It was helpful and I understand it. The Revenue Commissioners were found to be correct in that case. I am trying to figure out, as a member of the committee, and I am sure many members of the public are also trying to figure out, whether it was treated as a capital...

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 9 - Revenue Commissioners
Chapter 12 - Controls over the Temporary Wage Subsidy Scheme
Chapter 13 - Revenue's Management of Suspicious Transactions Reports
(2 Dec 2021)

Brian Stanley: Okay.

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