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Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 9 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 10 - Management of Social Welfare Appeals
Chapter 11 - Controls Over the Covid-19 Pandemic Unemployment Payment
(9 Dec 2021)

Brian Stanley: It is acknowledged that Revenue carried out an investigation into RTÉ. Did the Department of Social Protection have a role in that investigation?

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 9 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 10 - Management of Social Welfare Appeals
Chapter 11 - Controls Over the Covid-19 Pandemic Unemployment Payment
(9 Dec 2021)

Brian Stanley: I will turn to local employment services for a moment. The Department says that it has advice from the Attorney General. Deputy Carthy pursued this, and the matter of the advice having to be contracted out. Will the midlands and Laois and Offaly be grouped together as one or will another county be brought in with them? Will it be contracted out on a two or three county basis?

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 9 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 10 - Management of Social Welfare Appeals
Chapter 11 - Controls Over the Covid-19 Pandemic Unemployment Payment
(9 Dec 2021)

Brian Stanley: The sound was not great when Mr. McKeon said it will be done on a larger scale. To clarify, is he saying that it will include two or three counties? Will it be Laois, Offaly, and somewhere else?

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 9 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 10 - Management of Social Welfare Appeals
Chapter 11 - Controls Over the Covid-19 Pandemic Unemployment Payment
(9 Dec 2021)

Brian Stanley: There is other legal advice on this. I know that Mr. McKeon is probably aware of this and has probably had it quoted to him over the past few weeks. There is a legal opinion that states that in layman's terms, if the contract was in place before 2014 and is not altered substantially, there is nothing to stop the Department from continuing with that. Many of these services have been in...

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 9 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 10 - Management of Social Welfare Appeals
Chapter 11 - Controls Over the Covid-19 Pandemic Unemployment Payment
(9 Dec 2021)

Brian Stanley: I do not think many would argue regarding governance and not having monitoring of contracts. Does Mr. McKeon accept that contracts for an indefinite period that were in place prior to the 2014 directive coming into play, could continue?

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 9 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 10 - Management of Social Welfare Appeals
Chapter 11 - Controls Over the Covid-19 Pandemic Unemployment Payment
(9 Dec 2021)

Brian Stanley: There is other advice and legal opinion.

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 9 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 10 - Management of Social Welfare Appeals
Chapter 11 - Controls Over the Covid-19 Pandemic Unemployment Payment
(9 Dec 2021)

Brian Stanley: Has Mr. McKeon looked at other European countries to see if they have followed this to the letter?

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 9 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 10 - Management of Social Welfare Appeals
Chapter 11 - Controls Over the Covid-19 Pandemic Unemployment Payment
(9 Dec 2021)

Brian Stanley: Deputy Munster-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 9 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 10 - Management of Social Welfare Appeals
Chapter 11 - Controls Over the Covid-19 Pandemic Unemployment Payment
(9 Dec 2021)

Brian Stanley: Deputy Munster and Mr. McKeon should stop talking over each other.

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 9 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 10 - Management of Social Welfare Appeals
Chapter 11 - Controls Over the Covid-19 Pandemic Unemployment Payment
(9 Dec 2021)

Brian Stanley: Could Deputy Munster stop talking over the witness?

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 9 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 10 - Management of Social Welfare Appeals
Chapter 11 - Controls Over the Covid-19 Pandemic Unemployment Payment
(9 Dec 2021)

Brian Stanley: Deputy Munster has asked the question.

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 9 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 10 - Management of Social Welfare Appeals
Chapter 11 - Controls Over the Covid-19 Pandemic Unemployment Payment
(9 Dec 2021)

Brian Stanley: Could Deputy Munster stop talking over the witness and allow him to answer the question? It is getting lost in the noise.

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 9 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 10 - Management of Social Welfare Appeals
Chapter 11 - Controls Over the Covid-19 Pandemic Unemployment Payment
(9 Dec 2021)

Brian Stanley: Could Mr. McKeon make a brief reply? Some of us did not catch what he said earlier.

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 9 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 10 - Management of Social Welfare Appeals
Chapter 11 - Controls Over the Covid-19 Pandemic Unemployment Payment
(9 Dec 2021)

Brian Stanley: I will go back to the issue of misclassification of workers and the test case issue and whether there was a test case or not. Correspondence from the Secretary General of the Department in 2000 shows that there was a test case. In that correspondence, the Secretary General of the Department of Social Welfare, as it was then called in 2000, said that in order to resolve the matter, a number...

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 9 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 10 - Management of Social Welfare Appeals
Chapter 11 - Controls Over the Covid-19 Pandemic Unemployment Payment
(9 Dec 2021)

Brian Stanley: The facts are that there are direct quotations from senior officials, including the head of Revenue and Mr. McKeon’s predecessor in the Department of Social Protection, that there was a deal in operation and that, for the 20-year period, many workers in that sector may have been misclassified, or to use the term “bogus self-employment”, may have been employed as bogus...

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 9 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 10 - Management of Social Welfare Appeals
Chapter 11 - Controls Over the Covid-19 Pandemic Unemployment Payment
(9 Dec 2021)

Brian Stanley: It was one case that was used subsequently to reclassify.

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 9 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 10 - Management of Social Welfare Appeals
Chapter 11 - Controls Over the Covid-19 Pandemic Unemployment Payment
(9 Dec 2021)

Brian Stanley: The workers in these sectors - in the gig economy or whatever we like to call it - if they are employed on a self-employment basis, have an imbalance of power between themselves and the employer and they are in a very weak position. If they say “Boo”, there is somebody else waiting to take their position. There is a vulnerability there for workers. I make the point that the...

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 9 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 10 - Management of Social Welfare Appeals
Chapter 11 - Controls Over the Covid-19 Pandemic Unemployment Payment
(9 Dec 2021)

Brian Stanley: Thank you. To conclude, I thank the witnesses for attending. As I said, I wish Mr. McKeon a speedy recovery. I thank the staff of the Department for the work they were involved in to prepare for the meeting and also for their work over the past two years. They have had a fairly hectic two years and the staff stepped up to the mark and carried a huge burden, and I want to acknowledge that....

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (9 Dec 2021)

Brian Stanley: The business of this afternoon's meeting includes minutes, accounts and financial statements, correspondence, work programme and any other business. We will then go into private session before adjourning. The minutes of our meeting on 2 December have been circulated to members. Do they wish to raise any issues relating to them? Okay. Are the minutes agreed? Agreed. As usual, the...

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (9 Dec 2021)

Brian Stanley: What sum of money are we talking about in respect of the Waterford and Wexford Education and Training Board, ETB?

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