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Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 40 - Children and Youth Affairs
(13 Jun 2019)

Kate O'Connell: What was at issue?

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 40 - Children and Youth Affairs
(13 Jun 2019)

Kate O'Connell: Dr. Lynch stated earlier that good value for money for the Exchequer was the focus up until 2015.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 40 - Children and Youth Affairs
(13 Jun 2019)

Kate O'Connell: However, the State was being overcharged. If children were being registered with facilities and not attending, then Pobal was overcharging when using public money.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 40 - Children and Youth Affairs
(13 Jun 2019)

Kate O'Connell: That is an astounding lack of governance. It is my experience that where there is an opportunity to commit fraud, people will always avail of it. The Department left itself wide open. As I understand it, a childcare provider could register 20, 40, 50 or 100 children and could claim payment per child, but the children might never have spent a day in the facility. Surely that is just a...

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 40 - Children and Youth Affairs
(13 Jun 2019)

Kate O'Connell: That is putting it mildly.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 40 - Children and Youth Affairs
(13 Jun 2019)

Kate O'Connell: In reality, the Department supported providers. It handed money to Pobal and Pobal, in turn, handed it to them. The money went to the providers and it did not go to the families. They were not getting good value. The Department did not set out what it proposed to do. One is not getting good value for money if the child is not turning up.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 40 - Children and Youth Affairs
(13 Jun 2019)

Kate O'Connell: Which it was not.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 40 - Children and Youth Affairs
(13 Jun 2019)

Kate O'Connell: Which there was.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 40 - Children and Youth Affairs
(13 Jun 2019)

Kate O'Connell: It is fraud. Perhaps I misunderstood what was said earlier, but the basis for the payment was enrolment and registration. Then it changed some years ago to base it on attendance.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 40 - Children and Youth Affairs
(13 Jun 2019)

Kate O'Connell: With the retrospective governance that we are very fond of in here - and I mean in general and not just in the context of the Department of Children and Youth Affairs - my interpretation of what Dr. Lynch has said is that the rules then allowed for the fraud or the over-claims. The rules, as set out by Dr. Lynch's Department and transferred to Pobal, allowed for this to happen. The...

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 40 - Children and Youth Affairs
(13 Jun 2019)

Kate O'Connell: There was payment for 20 hours and the child was only coming in for ten hours.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 40 - Children and Youth Affairs
(13 Jun 2019)

Kate O'Connell: Fivefold.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 40 - Children and Youth Affairs
(13 Jun 2019)

Kate O'Connell: They must have been making a profit.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 40 - Children and Youth Affairs
(13 Jun 2019)

Kate O'Connell: Will the Department provide the committee with a list of all of those in the community childcare subvention, CCS, scheme and what Dr. Lynch referred to as related schemes, the amount paid to each of the not-for-profits or whatever they are, for the past ten years? Can we find out from where the biggest portion of money which was overclaimed was returned? If State funds are being handed out-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 40 - Children and Youth Affairs
(13 Jun 2019)

Kate O'Connell: I refer to CCS scheme and early childhood care and education, ECCE, providers, and everyone in early childhood who is in receipt of these payments. Are there any data? Dr. Lynch said that the compliance visits were to the largest providers which were the greatest risk to the Exchequer. This is the low-hanging fruit where the most money can be recouped. I assume there is no point in going...

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 40 - Children and Youth Affairs
(13 Jun 2019)

Kate O'Connell: -----who may have overclaimed by €7. It would not be worthwhile to go back in there, but not in the case of a big provider or one of the larger companies with providers everywhere and this was routine. Will the committee be told how much of the budget went on CCS and ECCE from day one? I am concerned that a red flag was not raised about why there was 100% uptake in a certain area....

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 40 - Children and Youth Affairs
(13 Jun 2019)

Kate O'Connell: We need it broken down as to who received the money, from when, and then the committee can look at it as spikes.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 40 - Children and Youth Affairs
(13 Jun 2019)

Kate O'Connell: No. I am sure that would be confidential.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 40 - Children and Youth Affairs
(13 Jun 2019)

Kate O'Connell: That is what we want.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 40 - Children and Youth Affairs
(13 Jun 2019)

Kate O'Connell: Ms McNally said there are 4,500 types.

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