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Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2016
Vote 11 (Department of Public Expenditure and Reform) (Revised)
Vote 12 (Superannuation and Retired Allowances) (Revised)
Vote 14 (State Laboratory) (Revised)
Vote 15 (Secret Service) (Revised)
Vote 17 (Public Appointments Service) (Revised)
Vote 18 (Shared Services) (Revised)
Vote 19 (Office of the Ombudsman) (Revised)
Vote 39 (Office of Government Procurement) (Revised)
(22 Jun 2016)

John McGuinness: The Deputy indicated a wish to speak.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2016
Vote 11 (Department of Public Expenditure and Reform) (Revised)
Vote 12 (Superannuation and Retired Allowances) (Revised)
Vote 14 (State Laboratory) (Revised)
Vote 15 (Secret Service) (Revised)
Vote 17 (Public Appointments Service) (Revised)
Vote 18 (Shared Services) (Revised)
Vote 19 (Office of the Ombudsman) (Revised)
Vote 39 (Office of Government Procurement) (Revised)
(22 Jun 2016)

John McGuinness: I thank the Deputy.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2016
Vote 11 (Department of Public Expenditure and Reform) (Revised)
Vote 12 (Superannuation and Retired Allowances) (Revised)
Vote 14 (State Laboratory) (Revised)
Vote 15 (Secret Service) (Revised)
Vote 17 (Public Appointments Service) (Revised)
Vote 18 (Shared Services) (Revised)
Vote 19 (Office of the Ombudsman) (Revised)
Vote 39 (Office of Government Procurement) (Revised)
(22 Jun 2016)

John McGuinness: We are caught for time.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2016
Vote 11 (Department of Public Expenditure and Reform) (Revised)
Vote 12 (Superannuation and Retired Allowances) (Revised)
Vote 14 (State Laboratory) (Revised)
Vote 15 (Secret Service) (Revised)
Vote 17 (Public Appointments Service) (Revised)
Vote 18 (Shared Services) (Revised)
Vote 19 (Office of the Ombudsman) (Revised)
Vote 39 (Office of Government Procurement) (Revised)
(22 Jun 2016)

John McGuinness: That is my business. I am chairing the meeting. The Deputy should finish the question and allow the Minister to answer.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2016
Vote 11 (Department of Public Expenditure and Reform) (Revised)
Vote 12 (Superannuation and Retired Allowances) (Revised)
Vote 14 (State Laboratory) (Revised)
Vote 15 (Secret Service) (Revised)
Vote 17 (Public Appointments Service) (Revised)
Vote 18 (Shared Services) (Revised)
Vote 19 (Office of the Ombudsman) (Revised)
Vote 39 (Office of Government Procurement) (Revised)
(22 Jun 2016)

John McGuinness: We did not start 30 minutes ago. The Deputy should ask his question and get on with it.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2016
Vote 11 (Department of Public Expenditure and Reform) (Revised)
Vote 12 (Superannuation and Retired Allowances) (Revised)
Vote 14 (State Laboratory) (Revised)
Vote 15 (Secret Service) (Revised)
Vote 17 (Public Appointments Service) (Revised)
Vote 18 (Shared Services) (Revised)
Vote 19 (Office of the Ombudsman) (Revised)
Vote 39 (Office of Government Procurement) (Revised)
(22 Jun 2016)

John McGuinness: Yes.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2016
Vote 11 (Department of Public Expenditure and Reform) (Revised)
Vote 12 (Superannuation and Retired Allowances) (Revised)
Vote 14 (State Laboratory) (Revised)
Vote 15 (Secret Service) (Revised)
Vote 17 (Public Appointments Service) (Revised)
Vote 18 (Shared Services) (Revised)
Vote 19 (Office of the Ombudsman) (Revised)
Vote 39 (Office of Government Procurement) (Revised)
(22 Jun 2016)

John McGuinness: To be fair to the Minister and the Department, these figures were given to us a number of days ago. The figures from the OPW only arrived last night.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2016
Vote 11 (Department of Public Expenditure and Reform) (Revised)
Vote 12 (Superannuation and Retired Allowances) (Revised)
Vote 14 (State Laboratory) (Revised)
Vote 15 (Secret Service) (Revised)
Vote 17 (Public Appointments Service) (Revised)
Vote 18 (Shared Services) (Revised)
Vote 19 (Office of the Ombudsman) (Revised)
Vote 39 (Office of Government Procurement) (Revised)
(22 Jun 2016)

John McGuinness: That document-----

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2016
Vote 11 (Department of Public Expenditure and Reform) (Revised)
Vote 12 (Superannuation and Retired Allowances) (Revised)
Vote 14 (State Laboratory) (Revised)
Vote 15 (Secret Service) (Revised)
Vote 17 (Public Appointments Service) (Revised)
Vote 18 (Shared Services) (Revised)
Vote 19 (Office of the Ombudsman) (Revised)
Vote 39 (Office of Government Procurement) (Revised)
(22 Jun 2016)

John McGuinness: The information from the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform came days ago but the information from the OPW came yesterday.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2016
Vote 11 (Department of Public Expenditure and Reform) (Revised)
Vote 12 (Superannuation and Retired Allowances) (Revised)
Vote 14 (State Laboratory) (Revised)
Vote 15 (Secret Service) (Revised)
Vote 17 (Public Appointments Service) (Revised)
Vote 18 (Shared Services) (Revised)
Vote 19 (Office of the Ombudsman) (Revised)
Vote 39 (Office of Government Procurement) (Revised)
(22 Jun 2016)

John McGuinness: I am conscious of the time. As part of the restrictions on us, we are supposed to finish at 12 noon.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2016
Vote 11 (Department of Public Expenditure and Reform) (Revised)
Vote 12 (Superannuation and Retired Allowances) (Revised)
Vote 14 (State Laboratory) (Revised)
Vote 15 (Secret Service) (Revised)
Vote 17 (Public Appointments Service) (Revised)
Vote 18 (Shared Services) (Revised)
Vote 19 (Office of the Ombudsman) (Revised)
Vote 39 (Office of Government Procurement) (Revised)
(22 Jun 2016)

John McGuinness: I appreciate that. I will deal with a few issues that relate to the Minister of State, Deputy Eoghan Murphy. What is the total amount involved in procurement by the State?

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2016
Vote 11 (Department of Public Expenditure and Reform) (Revised)
Vote 12 (Superannuation and Retired Allowances) (Revised)
Vote 14 (State Laboratory) (Revised)
Vote 15 (Secret Service) (Revised)
Vote 17 (Public Appointments Service) (Revised)
Vote 18 (Shared Services) (Revised)
Vote 19 (Office of the Ombudsman) (Revised)
Vote 39 (Office of Government Procurement) (Revised)
(22 Jun 2016)

John McGuinness: Is it €3.5 billion on capital works?

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2016
Vote 11 (Department of Public Expenditure and Reform) (Revised)
Vote 12 (Superannuation and Retired Allowances) (Revised)
Vote 14 (State Laboratory) (Revised)
Vote 15 (Secret Service) (Revised)
Vote 17 (Public Appointments Service) (Revised)
Vote 18 (Shared Services) (Revised)
Vote 19 (Office of the Ombudsman) (Revised)
Vote 39 (Office of Government Procurement) (Revised)
(22 Jun 2016)

John McGuinness: Yes. If I was in this position, I would be conscious that this would involve divulging business data not only to the Department but to others, and then one is competing against larger companies with greater turnover. The turnover figure required to qualify to tender for business is too high. Not too many Irish companies have this level of turnover. The complaint is that many of the...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2016
Vote 11 (Department of Public Expenditure and Reform) (Revised)
Vote 12 (Superannuation and Retired Allowances) (Revised)
Vote 14 (State Laboratory) (Revised)
Vote 15 (Secret Service) (Revised)
Vote 17 (Public Appointments Service) (Revised)
Vote 18 (Shared Services) (Revised)
Vote 19 (Office of the Ombudsman) (Revised)
Vote 39 (Office of Government Procurement) (Revised)
(22 Jun 2016)

John McGuinness: The information I was given about France is that the French break down the contracts in the interests of their own indigenous businesses. The EU should be challenged on the rules and regulations it imposes on member states. Sometimes it is not a case of one size fits all. If a measure is imposed on France, it will respond to it quickly.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2016
Vote 11 (Department of Public Expenditure and Reform) (Revised)
Vote 12 (Superannuation and Retired Allowances) (Revised)
Vote 14 (State Laboratory) (Revised)
Vote 15 (Secret Service) (Revised)
Vote 17 (Public Appointments Service) (Revised)
Vote 18 (Shared Services) (Revised)
Vote 19 (Office of the Ombudsman) (Revised)
Vote 39 (Office of Government Procurement) (Revised)
(22 Jun 2016)

John McGuinness: It is good that the Minister gets beyond the statistics and gets down to the level of real people. That is where the effects are felt most. I think the experience has been negative, but perhaps with some tweaks here and there the system could allow Irish businesses to hold their own within the State.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2016
Vote 11 (Department of Public Expenditure and Reform) (Revised)
Vote 12 (Superannuation and Retired Allowances) (Revised)
Vote 14 (State Laboratory) (Revised)
Vote 15 (Secret Service) (Revised)
Vote 17 (Public Appointments Service) (Revised)
Vote 18 (Shared Services) (Revised)
Vote 19 (Office of the Ombudsman) (Revised)
Vote 39 (Office of Government Procurement) (Revised)
(22 Jun 2016)

John McGuinness: I am happy to hear that. The Minister mentioned IT projects in his opening remarks. How does the role of the Department fit into some of these areas? The HSE has been engaged with the Department for some time in respect of a single financial reporting model that would give the Department greater insight into the spending of the HSE. What is the position on that now? Has the Department...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2016
Vote 11 (Department of Public Expenditure and Reform) (Revised)
Vote 12 (Superannuation and Retired Allowances) (Revised)
Vote 14 (State Laboratory) (Revised)
Vote 15 (Secret Service) (Revised)
Vote 17 (Public Appointments Service) (Revised)
Vote 18 (Shared Services) (Revised)
Vote 19 (Office of the Ombudsman) (Revised)
Vote 39 (Office of Government Procurement) (Revised)
(22 Jun 2016)

John McGuinness: Would one of the officials present have the answer? He would be able to sit in the Minister's seat.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2016
Vote 11 (Department of Public Expenditure and Reform) (Revised)
Vote 12 (Superannuation and Retired Allowances) (Revised)
Vote 14 (State Laboratory) (Revised)
Vote 15 (Secret Service) (Revised)
Vote 17 (Public Appointments Service) (Revised)
Vote 18 (Shared Services) (Revised)
Vote 19 (Office of the Ombudsman) (Revised)
Vote 39 (Office of Government Procurement) (Revised)
(22 Jun 2016)

John McGuinness: I am not putting anybody on the spot. This has gone on for years. Each time the question is asked, we are told the Department is consulting with the HSE or the HSE is consulting with the Department. Nobody has given a straight answer to date. As a result, there is a major single Department with a significant budget that is not able to provide the information that one would expect. The IT...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2016
Vote 11 (Department of Public Expenditure and Reform) (Revised)
Vote 12 (Superannuation and Retired Allowances) (Revised)
Vote 14 (State Laboratory) (Revised)
Vote 15 (Secret Service) (Revised)
Vote 17 (Public Appointments Service) (Revised)
Vote 18 (Shared Services) (Revised)
Vote 19 (Office of the Ombudsman) (Revised)
Vote 39 (Office of Government Procurement) (Revised)
(22 Jun 2016)

John McGuinness: That is good.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2016
Vote 11 (Department of Public Expenditure and Reform) (Revised)
Vote 12 (Superannuation and Retired Allowances) (Revised)
Vote 14 (State Laboratory) (Revised)
Vote 15 (Secret Service) (Revised)
Vote 17 (Public Appointments Service) (Revised)
Vote 18 (Shared Services) (Revised)
Vote 19 (Office of the Ombudsman) (Revised)
Vote 39 (Office of Government Procurement) (Revised)
(22 Jun 2016)

John McGuinness: I wish to raise an issue with regard to staffing. Is there a process to allow individuals who retire on health grounds to apply to return to the Civil Service if they fulfil all the necessary requirements? Is there a timeframe for that process?

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