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Public Accounts Committee: 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme (Resumed)
2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 41 - Partnership Arrangements in the Health Service
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund
(20 Jun 2013)

Derek Nolan: There were other moneys paid from the funds to many unions, all kinds of unions, including SIPTU. I think it was approximately €60,000.

Public Accounts Committee: 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme (Resumed)
2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 41 - Partnership Arrangements in the Health Service
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund
(20 Jun 2013)

Derek Nolan: Was that one lump payment? What was the nature of that €68,000 and why was it refunded?

Public Accounts Committee: 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme (Resumed)
2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 41 - Partnership Arrangements in the Health Service
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund
(20 Jun 2013)

Derek Nolan: Was that in accordance with the terms and objectives of the SKILL programme and the account?

Public Accounts Committee: 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme (Resumed)
2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 41 - Partnership Arrangements in the Health Service
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund
(20 Jun 2013)

Derek Nolan: That brings us on to the next point. He stated that he could call it anything and that he was a senior employee in SIPTU. Clearly, Mr. Merrigan had an enormous amount of leeway if he believed he on his own could simply set up a fund with millions of euro going through it. I am trying to imagine a workplace with someone coming in, running this programme and having this money going through...

Public Accounts Committee: 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme (Resumed)
2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 41 - Partnership Arrangements in the Health Service
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund
(20 Jun 2013)

Derek Nolan: On some of the matters we see coming out of the report - for instance, the foreign trips, of which Mr. Merrigan went on many - did no one in SIPTU wonder why he was gone abroad or who was paying for his trips to the United States all the time?

Public Accounts Committee: 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme (Resumed)
2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 41 - Partnership Arrangements in the Health Service
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund
(20 Jun 2013)

Derek Nolan: Did anyone else in SIPTU go on these trips?

Public Accounts Committee: 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme (Resumed)
2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 41 - Partnership Arrangements in the Health Service
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund
(20 Jun 2013)

Derek Nolan: I acknowledge that. I accept, as Mr. O'Flynn states, that two current employees of SIPTU travelled on trips. I am trying to find out whether there was any way other than through the account that SIPTU could have been notified or could have seen that there was something going on. I accept Mr. O'Flynn's point that if there are trips on which Department of Health officials are travelling, one...

Public Accounts Committee: 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme (Resumed)
2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 41 - Partnership Arrangements in the Health Service
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund
(20 Jun 2013)

Derek Nolan: September 2009 was the first time Mr. O'Flynn became aware that this fund existed. He had a meeting with Dr. Smith from the HSE. Obviously, Mr. O'Flynn would have talked to Mr. Merrigan quickly after that. What did he say to Mr. Merrigan?

Public Accounts Committee: 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme (Resumed)
2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 41 - Partnership Arrangements in the Health Service
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund
(20 Jun 2013)

Derek Nolan: Was the attitude between September 2009 and July 2010 one of wait and see?

Public Accounts Committee: 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme (Resumed)
2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 41 - Partnership Arrangements in the Health Service
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund
(20 Jun 2013)

Derek Nolan: Was Mr. O'Flynn engaged by the HSE at that time? Were they working with Mr. O'Flynn in the audit?

Public Accounts Committee: 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme (Resumed)
2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 41 - Partnership Arrangements in the Health Service
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund
(20 Jun 2013)

Derek Nolan: When was Mr. O'Flynn refused the report?

Public Accounts Committee: 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme (Resumed)
2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 41 - Partnership Arrangements in the Health Service
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund
(20 Jun 2013)

Derek Nolan: Did Mr. O'Flynn get it in early 2010?

Public Accounts Committee: 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme (Resumed)
2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 41 - Partnership Arrangements in the Health Service
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund
(20 Jun 2013)

Derek Nolan: I welcome Mr. Joe O'Flynn to the meeting and acknowledge the fact that he has attended voluntarily and has asked to speak. As many try not to appear before the committee, it is appreciated that he has attended. Perhaps I can put two questions to the Comptroller and Auditor General before putting questions to Mr. Joe O'Flynn. How would the Comptroller and Auditor General characterise the...

Public Accounts Committee: 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme (Resumed)
2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 41 - Partnership Arrangements in the Health Service
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund
(20 Jun 2013)

Derek Nolan: It was stated in the report that SIPTU took control of the account in 2010. Is there any evidence that it had any engagement or control or interaction with the fund before that time?

Public Accounts Committee: 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme (Resumed)
2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 41 - Partnership Arrangements in the Health Service
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund
(20 Jun 2013)

Derek Nolan: I thank Mr. McCarthy. Through the Chair, I suggest to Mr. Joe O'Flynn that this is a very serious issue concerning the fund. It has caused a significant amount of disquiet among the public and in the committee because so many organisations are involved in what can only be described as a catastrophic breakdown in corporate governance. Some of the things for which the account has been used...

Public Accounts Committee: 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme (Resumed)
2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 41 - Partnership Arrangements in the Health Service
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund
(20 Jun 2013)

Derek Nolan: Mr. Joe O'Flynn has mentioned that the levy fund is normally not associated with head office, that it is a fund into which branch members pay and is administered for branches. What does he suppose was the motivation of the fund administrator, Mr. Merrigan, for calling it a levy fund?

Public Accounts Committee: 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme (Resumed)
2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 41 - Partnership Arrangements in the Health Service
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund
(20 Jun 2013)

Derek Nolan: Does Mr. Joe O'Flynn believe that the motivation for calling it a levy fund was deliberately to hide it from the scope of the union?

Public Accounts Committee: 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme (Resumed)
2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 41 - Partnership Arrangements in the Health Service
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund
(20 Jun 2013)

Derek Nolan: It never was and never acted as a levy fund.

Public Accounts Committee: 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme (Resumed)
2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 41 - Partnership Arrangements in the Health Service
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund
(20 Jun 2013)

Derek Nolan: It was established with the name levy fund, which meant that it would not come under SIPTU's audited accounts and would not be inspected by its members. It never acted as a levy fund and never took levies from members and from day one it operated as something else, other than a levy fund.

Public Accounts Committee: 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme (Resumed)
2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 41 - Partnership Arrangements in the Health Service
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund
(20 Jun 2013)

Derek Nolan: Would not this lead to the inescapable conclusion that Mr. Merrigan, or the fund administrator, deliberately set it up in such a fashion as to keep it out of the union's control?

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