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Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Dual Pricing for Insurance: Discussion (Resumed) (21 Nov 2019)

Kieran O'Donnell: It is about the substance of what they have done. If I work for an insurance company, and I am in a darkened room and I make phone calls and agree a price, and then the following day I issue a statement and I price signal, can I go from a mortal sin to a misdemeanour by putting out a press statement that is price signalling?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Dual Pricing for Insurance: Discussion (Resumed) (21 Nov 2019)

Kieran O'Donnell: Mr. O'Leary is missing my point. If that manifests itself by someone issuing a press statement and price signalling, as far as I am concerned, in substance, they are the same thing. There is a danger. To put it this way, if I can turn a criminal offence into a civil offence, I am a much happier person, so I might mask a cartel as being price signalling. How can the CCPC differentiate...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Dual Pricing for Insurance: Discussion (Resumed) (21 Nov 2019)

Kieran O'Donnell: There is a big difference.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Dual Pricing for Insurance: Discussion (Resumed) (21 Nov 2019)

Kieran O'Donnell: If the commission has powers under the civil law, that would be fine but it appears that it has no powers.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Dual Pricing for Insurance: Discussion (Resumed) (21 Nov 2019)

Kieran O'Donnell: Not in substance. People need to understand that this is not personal. We have a job to do here and must ask these questions. In essence, the CCPC cannot issue a fine, although it can issue a commitment. It can take insurance companies to court but, ultimately, there are no sanctions in court so it is a Pyrrhic victory. When the CCPC looks at this price signalling issue, does it also...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Dual Pricing for Insurance: Discussion (Resumed) (21 Nov 2019)

Kieran O'Donnell: Is any element of that process under way in terms of the CCPC's findings to date?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Dual Pricing for Insurance: Discussion (Resumed) (21 Nov 2019)

Kieran O'Donnell: Were the Houses of the Oireachtas to bring in legislation now that permitted fines and strengthened the powers of the CCPC, could that be applied to the CCPC's findings? What years is the CCPC looking at?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Dual Pricing for Insurance: Discussion (Resumed) (21 Nov 2019)

Kieran O'Donnell: To when?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Dual Pricing for Insurance: Discussion (Resumed) (21 Nov 2019)

Kieran O'Donnell: Were the Houses of the Oireachtas to bring in legislation to strengthen powers to fine and the powers of the CCPC in terms of reprimanding, could they be applied to the CCPC's findings in the new year?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Dual Pricing for Insurance: Discussion (Resumed) (21 Nov 2019)

Kieran O'Donnell: In respect of a point previously put to Mr. Hassett, does he believe a cartel is in place in the insurance industry?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Dual Pricing for Insurance: Discussion (Resumed) (21 Nov 2019)

Kieran O'Donnell: Insurance Ireland keeps quoting figures. Can it give a breakdown? When it is quoting the increase in the awards, is Insurance Ireland including the expected as well? Is Insurance Ireland looking at incurred figures?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Dual Pricing for Insurance: Discussion (Resumed) (21 Nov 2019)

Kieran O'Donnell: Mr. Horan quoted a figure of-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Dual Pricing for Insurance: Discussion (Resumed) (21 Nov 2019)

Kieran O'Donnell: The question is actual level of claims paid out because there is a figure there that is a moveable figure, which is effectively the expected cost of future claims.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Dual Pricing for Insurance: Discussion (Resumed) (21 Nov 2019)

Kieran O'Donnell: We are not comparing like with like. When we are talking about the number of claims that have come down, based on what Insurance Ireland is telling us, as the awards have come down in the courts by 20% that means that the provisions Insurance Ireland is making must be the payouts by the insurance companies prior to going to court, which is where the big increases are.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Dual Pricing for Insurance: Discussion (Resumed) (21 Nov 2019)

Kieran O'Donnell: Finally, is it fair to say that the payouts of claims between 2014 and 2017-2018 came down?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Dual Pricing for Insurance: Discussion (Resumed) (21 Nov 2019)

Kieran O'Donnell: I am not ignoring them. I am merely making the point - it is a fair point to make - that it is a judgment call by the insurance companies.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Dual Pricing for Insurance: Discussion (Resumed) (21 Nov 2019)

Kieran O'Donnell: The insurance companies have appeared before the committee. As far as I am concerned, many of them are making super profits, such that they have got it right. I agree with Mr. Hassett that there is need for more competition in the market.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Dual Pricing for Insurance: Discussion (Resumed) (21 Nov 2019)

Kieran O'Donnell: How can an insurance company work with an intermediary that is not licensed by the Central Bank of Ireland?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Dual Pricing for Insurance: Discussion (Resumed) (21 Nov 2019)

Kieran O'Donnell: Do the insurance companies believe they are dealing with the consumer as distinct from the broker?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Dual Pricing for Insurance: Discussion (Resumed) (21 Nov 2019)

Kieran O'Donnell: Senator Lawlor makes a fair comment. It is unusual, given the level of security in respect of the ordinary person making an application online, that the fraud was not detected. It is astounding.

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