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Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(20 Jun 2017)

Alan Kelly: Yes. Fine.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(20 Jun 2017)

Alan Kelly: You are the witness. They are here to support you.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(20 Jun 2017)

Alan Kelly: Fine. Ask him.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(20 Jun 2017)

Alan Kelly: We have rules and procedures inside here, Commissioner, so please answer the question.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(20 Jun 2017)

Alan Kelly: No, I am not. I am asking the Commissioner a very specific question. She is the Accounting Officer and might please remember that. We need to know if the internal auditor, Mr. Niall Kelly, was given access to everything from March 2016. The Commissioner has now given evidence that subsequently he got information on the Cabra account. Why was that?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(20 Jun 2017)

Alan Kelly: Does that not concern the Commissioner? Listen, we have reports now of what is potentially fraud. Now we find out that the internal auditor - at the same time he was given access to everything else - was not given access to the Cabra account, and the Commissioner does not know about it.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(20 Jun 2017)

Alan Kelly: Okay.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(20 Jun 2017)

Alan Kelly: Let me-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(20 Jun 2017)

Alan Kelly: Basically, this is what we need to know. I will also make a comment. First, we need to know, which the Commissioner as the Accounting Officer cannot confirm, if Mr. Kelly was given access to everything from March 2016.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(20 Jun 2017)

Alan Kelly: Earlier evidence was that he may not have been given access to the Cabra account, which is now pretty famous at this stage. Let me finish. There is a second issue. Through this process, will the Commissioner as the Accounting Officer, even though I believe she should be aware of it, ask her management team if he was given access to all accounts immediately? This is not about instructions...

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(20 Jun 2017)

Alan Kelly: Fair enough.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(20 Jun 2017)

Alan Kelly: We will give the Commissioner that time.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(20 Jun 2017)

Alan Kelly: The Deputy was not here at the beginning.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(20 Jun 2017)

Alan Kelly: No. I understand-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(20 Jun 2017)

Alan Kelly: Deputy Aylward, we had a discussion in private session. You were not here for it. Maybe-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(20 Jun 2017)

Alan Kelly: No, it is not. I am just telling the Deputy what happened. It was a decision of the committee. It was not my decision. I have a final two very quick ones. When asked about when Mr. Barrett looked for correspondence relating to the letter in which Mr. Culhane had cited the Official Secrets Act, the Commissioner gave evidence, in fairness to her, that absolutely no investigation was ever...

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(20 Jun 2017)

Alan Kelly: The Commissioner might come back to us. This is my last question. We have had a serious number of questions asked about how funds were distributed and used etc. I presume the Commissioner is not aware-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(20 Jun 2017)

Alan Kelly: Fine. Was the Commissioner aware of any of the funds? She was in Templemore. She might remind me of when she was superintendent. Was it around 2000?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(20 Jun 2017)

Alan Kelly: In 2000.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(20 Jun 2017)

Alan Kelly: The Commissioner was there again subsequently, in 2007-ish, as assistant commissioner.

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