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Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Oireachtas (Ministerial and Parliamentary Offices) (Amendment) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (27 Feb 2014)

Brendan Howlin: It is a point I have not reflected on, to be honest, because it is the status quo. The current Ceann Comhairle was elected as a member of the Fine Gael Party and is included in the calculation. He received the office subsequently. The Deputy makes a fair point. Perhaps he would let me reflect on it between now and Report Stage.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Oireachtas (Ministerial and Parliamentary Offices) (Amendment) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (27 Feb 2014)

Brendan Howlin: I do not agree with the Deputy. We must have a parliamentary and democratic oversight of this. The Minister should be able to look at and make observations on the guidelines as there might be occasions when the Minister will have something to say about them. For proper democratic oversight, it should come back to an elected person.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Oireachtas (Ministerial and Parliamentary Offices) (Amendment) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (27 Feb 2014)

Brendan Howlin: We can come back to this with the other legislation and debate it.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Oireachtas (Ministerial and Parliamentary Offices) (Amendment) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (27 Feb 2014)

Brendan Howlin: I applaud Deputy Fleming's ingenuity in getting an entirely and completely extraneous matter embedded in this amendment.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Oireachtas (Ministerial and Parliamentary Offices) (Amendment) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (27 Feb 2014)

Brendan Howlin: The notion of pay to special advisers is clearly nothing whatever to do with parliamentary activities and the notion that activities supporting parliamentary parties should be conflated with this is bizarre. Nonetheless, I will deal with the issue, about which I have strong feelings. I have had the privilege of holding a ministerial post in three Departments, all of which were challenging....

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Oireachtas (Ministerial and Parliamentary Offices) (Amendment) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (27 Feb 2014)

Brendan Howlin: The Deputy is not right in saying it was reflected from the start; it was not. For most of the operation of this system, the Government and the Opposition were supported equally. In 1996 the then Minister, Deputy Ruairí Quinn, determined to rebalance the system when in government. There was no enthusiasm on the part of Deputy Sean Fleming's party in advance of 1996 to make the...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Oireachtas (Ministerial and Parliamentary Offices) (Amendment) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (27 Feb 2014)

Brendan Howlin: I heard what the Deputy said on Second Stage and I am not opposed to the principle set by him. He might be able to throw light on this issue. The Oireachtas was traditionally funded in the normal way of voted expenditure, just like everything else. That was changed in 2003 by the Government led by the Deputy's party-----

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Oireachtas (Ministerial and Parliamentary Offices) (Amendment) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (27 Feb 2014)

Brendan Howlin: ----- when it introduced the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission Act 2003. That legislation determined that the funding of the Oireachtas should come from the Central Fund, not as line voted expenditure on an annual basis. It is now done through legislation and there is usually a three-year envelope of expenditure through a Houses of the Oireachtas Commission (amendment) Bill. The Deputy...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Oireachtas (Ministerial and Parliamentary Offices) (Amendment) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (27 Feb 2014)

Brendan Howlin: No, this is part of general payments made from the Central Fund. I do not want to dislodge it from general fund payments. The next time we deal with Houses of the Oireachtas Commission legislation we can consider whether all of the funding for the Oireachtas should come through the normal way. However, we should not make fish of one and fowl of another in terms of the component parts of...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Oireachtas (Ministerial and Parliamentary Offices) (Amendment) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (27 Feb 2014)

Brendan Howlin: No, it is incorporated in a Houses of the Oireachtas Commission (amendment) Bill which is-----

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Oireachtas (Ministerial and Parliamentary Offices) (Amendment) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (27 Feb 2014)

Brendan Howlin: Yes; obviously, it is voted expenditure. The sum of money is incorporated into the Bill.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Oireachtas (Ministerial and Parliamentary Offices) (Amendment) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (27 Feb 2014)

Brendan Howlin: It is a three-year cycle. We enacted the Bill at the end of last year.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Oireachtas (Ministerial and Parliamentary Offices) (Amendment) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (27 Feb 2014)

Brendan Howlin: Yes.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Oireachtas (Ministerial and Parliamentary Offices) (Amendment) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (27 Feb 2014)

Brendan Howlin: I need to make two changes to the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission legislation. One relates to the Ministers and secretaries Act, and that is the appointment of the Clerk of the Dáil. That is currently before the committee. I want to introduce broader legislation and it is something I would consider in that context.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Oireachtas (Ministerial and Parliamentary Offices) (Amendment) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (27 Feb 2014)

Brendan Howlin: We have debated the issue at length on Second Stage. My view is clear. Others have a different view, and that is perfectly good too.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Oireachtas (Ministerial and Parliamentary Offices) (Amendment) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (27 Feb 2014)

Brendan Howlin: We have had a very wide-ranging discussion that goes well beyond the scope of not just the amendment, but of the Bill. I will respond as best I can. Deputy Sean Fleming spoke about a dissolution as mentioned in section 12. It is plainly the fact that the will of the people as determined in a general election cannot be fulfilled where the party ceases to exist. We cannot pay for the...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Oireachtas (Ministerial and Parliamentary Offices) (Amendment) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (27 Feb 2014)

Brendan Howlin: If we determined that there was a different Government, we could not give the parliamentary support for the Opposition to the Government, and the parliamentary support for the Government to the Opposition when that had changed. It seems reasonable and logical that this would be the outcome of that very unusual - I believe unprecedented - change within a Parliament. The Deputy made a...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Oireachtas (Ministerial and Parliamentary Offices) (Amendment) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (27 Feb 2014)

Brendan Howlin: I do not accept that.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Oireachtas (Ministerial and Parliamentary Offices) (Amendment) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (27 Feb 2014)

Brendan Howlin: The Deputy should stick to the Bill.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Oireachtas (Ministerial and Parliamentary Offices) (Amendment) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (27 Feb 2014)

Brendan Howlin: Of course they cannot vote because the proportionality has to be reflected. It would be bizarre if whoever turned up could form the majority.

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