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Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Protected Disclosures Bill 2013: Committee Stage (14 May 2014)

Brendan Howlin: There is a complexity attached to this issue. I have been operating out of a trade union house for the past 30 years. This particular union employs a firm of lawyers, but the client is the trade union, not the individual union member. That is to say, the client relationship is with the union itself, not with any individual who is a member of the union.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Protected Disclosures Bill 2013: Committee Stage (14 May 2014)

Brendan Howlin: It is part of the dilemma.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Protected Disclosures Bill 2013: Committee Stage (14 May 2014)

Brendan Howlin: That is what I propose to do. I have stress-tested the argument from the Deputy's perspective, but I remain to be convinced. I need to have another discussion with the Attorney General about what constitutes legal advice, who can impart legal advice and who should be protected by this provision.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Protected Disclosures Bill 2013: Committee Stage (14 May 2014)

Brendan Howlin: I move amendment No. 9: In page 11, to delete lines 27 to 29.The effect of this amendment is to delete subsection 10(3)(d) of the Bill as published. Subsection 10(1) sets out the circumstances under which a disclosure made to a person other than an employer, a prescribed person or a Minister will attract the protections of the Bill. One of the circumstances listed is where, in all the...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Protected Disclosures Bill 2013: Committee Stage (14 May 2014)

Brendan Howlin: I have carefully examined this structure. Last year I held discussions in London with colleagues there with long experience of this type of legislation. In fact, I was asked to make a presentation on our legislation, which is now regarded as cutting edge. I made several changes to the original draft on foot of these discussions and the experience in the United Kingdom. Deputy Mary Lou...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Protected Disclosures Bill 2013: Committee Stage (14 May 2014)

Brendan Howlin: I have examined the two amendments in which the Deputy proposes to delete the words "trade union official" from the definition of a legal adviser and create a new area for the giving of advice. I thank her for the amendments and realise this matter was raised on Second Stage. The Deputy is aware that under section 9, as drafted, a worker has the protections provided by the legislation in...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Protected Disclosures Bill 2013: Committee Stage (14 May 2014)

Brendan Howlin: Again, I have given careful consideration to this amendment. I am concerned that the implications might be somewhat different from what the Deputy intends. A failure on the part of a person to comply with a legal obligation is listed as one of the relevant wrongdoings in section 5(3)(b). Therefore a breach of the statutory code would represent a breach of such a legal obligation and may...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Protected Disclosures Bill 2013: Committee Stage (14 May 2014)

Brendan Howlin: That is a statutory code. I am not sure, off the top of my head, whether there is a legal underpinning of the code of conduct for councillors. I am informed that the Local Government Act 2012 does underpin that for councillors. It is a statutory basis for a code of conduct; in other words, the code of conduct flows from a statutory enactment.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Protected Disclosures Bill 2013: Committee Stage (14 May 2014)

Brendan Howlin: Yes.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Protected Disclosures Bill 2013: Committee Stage (14 May 2014)

Brendan Howlin: If it is a local shop rule, it is not.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Protected Disclosures Bill 2013: Committee Stage (14 May 2014)

Brendan Howlin: The Deputy has encapsulated the position. It is a graded level of disclosure. While I believe, and it should be encouraged, that the vast bulk of the initial reporting of wrongdoing should be to the employer within the workplace, there should be a mechanism to allow a whisteblower to go beyond that, either if he is not listened to or if no action is taken on foot of it. The whole structure...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Protected Disclosures Bill 2013: Committee Stage (14 May 2014)

Brendan Howlin: I understand entirely and the Deputy makes a very valid point. The problem lies in the practicality of organising a structure that would accommodate these types of scenario. It seems that a volunteer who sees wrongdoing in an organisation for which he or she is working is very likely to expose it. There would not be great pressure on such an individual not to do so in terms of damage to...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Protected Disclosures Bill 2013: Committee Stage (14 May 2014)

Brendan Howlin: I will certainly do so. We are bringing forward this legislation in tandem with the freedom of information legislation as part of an overarching development of policy. The whistleblowing legislation has to be understood by people. One of the criticisms I have made during the years of the sectoral approach of previous Governments is that the more variance there is, the less likely it is...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Protected Disclosures Bill 2013: Committee Stage (14 May 2014)

Brendan Howlin: Training could be included also.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Protected Disclosures Bill 2013: Committee Stage (14 May 2014)

Brendan Howlin: We will see if we can find a suitable slot for it. The Deputy might do the same.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Protected Disclosures Bill 2013: Committee Stage (14 May 2014)

Brendan Howlin: There is nothing in what Deputy Fleming has said that I would disagree with in principle. It is now standard practice, and it is in the rules of the House, that we review legislation annually. It is an appropriate job of work, particularly for the Oireachtas committee to look at the operation of the legislation. I have three difficulties with the amendment tabled by Deputy Fleming. I...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Protected Disclosures Bill 2013: Committee Stage (14 May 2014)

Brendan Howlin: For once, the gap between Second Stage and Committee Stage has fundamentally improved the Bill.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Protected Disclosures Bill 2013: Committee Stage (14 May 2014)

Brendan Howlin: I thank Deputy McDonald for tabling the amendment. I want to acknowledge from the start that my approach is exactly that - namely, to see how we can jointly, as a committee, work to improve the Bill. The effect of the amendment put down by Deputy McDonald would be to delete that part of subsection (b)(i) of the definition of "worker" relating to contractors which excludes from the...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Protected Disclosures Bill 2013: Committee Stage (14 May 2014)

Brendan Howlin: There is no guarantee of that.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Protected Disclosures Bill 2013: Committee Stage (14 May 2014)

Brendan Howlin: We debated this at some length in the other House. As I said in response to the Deputy on the last amendment, the basis of this legislation is to afford workers protection against harm, if one likes, in terms of their employment status, so that nobody can demote them, ensure they would not get proper remuneration, fire them or exclude them from promotion. None of that applies to volunteers....

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