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Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Accounts of the Public Services
Chapter 9 - Greenhouse Gas-Related Financial Transactions: Discussion
(5 Nov 2019)

David Cullinane: I understand that but I am asking why. Does the CSO understand the logic of why they are not included?

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Accounts of the Public Services
Chapter 9 - Greenhouse Gas-Related Financial Transactions: Discussion
(5 Nov 2019)

David Cullinane: I understand that. I am not saying the CSO makes the decisions. Can the CSO explain to me why they are excluded?

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Accounts of the Public Services
Chapter 9 - Greenhouse Gas-Related Financial Transactions: Discussion
(5 Nov 2019)

David Cullinane: Is aviation part of that?

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Accounts of the Public Services
Chapter 9 - Greenhouse Gas-Related Financial Transactions: Discussion
(5 Nov 2019)

David Cullinane: Aviation is included. Aviation is a big polluter. Yet we are excluding aviation from the national emissions targets. To me that is extraordinary. What about private jets? Do we have any analysis on the use of private jets?

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Accounts of the Public Services
Chapter 9 - Greenhouse Gas-Related Financial Transactions: Discussion
(5 Nov 2019)

David Cullinane: Is there research on the carbon footprint of that sector?

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Accounts of the Public Services
Chapter 9 - Greenhouse Gas-Related Financial Transactions: Discussion
(5 Nov 2019)

David Cullinane: What about the CSO?

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Accounts of the Public Services
Chapter 9 - Greenhouse Gas-Related Financial Transactions: Discussion
(5 Nov 2019)

David Cullinane: There are 13 aircraft operators that participate in what is called the EU ETS. Is it the case that they are not included in the national emissions target?

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Accounts of the Public Services
Chapter 9 - Greenhouse Gas-Related Financial Transactions: Discussion
(5 Nov 2019)

David Cullinane: The Comptroller and Auditor General said in his report that emissions from ETS sector do not count towards national emissions targets.

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Accounts of the Public Services
Chapter 9 - Greenhouse Gas-Related Financial Transactions: Discussion
(5 Nov 2019)

David Cullinane: I imagine that is problematic since they are serious polluters.

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Accounts of the Public Services
Chapter 9 - Greenhouse Gas-Related Financial Transactions: Discussion
(5 Nov 2019)

David Cullinane: I welcome the witnesses. I welcome the opportunity to have a discussion on this issue and I thank the Chairman for facilitating it. I will start with the ESRI, which has done some analysis on carbon tax increases. Deputy Connolly spoke about the fact that carbon taxes are regressive. If carbon tax is regressive as a starting point, then as I understand it, the ESRI is arguing that either...

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Accounts of the Public Services
Chapter 9 - Greenhouse Gas-Related Financial Transactions: Discussion
(5 Nov 2019)

David Cullinane: The figures are contained in the ESRI opening statement. Would it not be better if we provided people with alternatives? For example, if we were making grants available for people to transition from heating their homes with oil or gas, would that not be a better way of using money rather than increasing the carbon tax? Would providing alternatives not be a better option than increasing...

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Accounts of the Public Services
Chapter 9 - Greenhouse Gas-Related Financial Transactions: Discussion
(5 Nov 2019)

David Cullinane: Why not?

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Accounts of the Public Services
Chapter 9 - Greenhouse Gas-Related Financial Transactions: Discussion
(5 Nov 2019)

David Cullinane: The ESRI looks at this purely from a revenue perspective.

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Accounts of the Public Services
Chapter 9 - Greenhouse Gas-Related Financial Transactions: Discussion
(5 Nov 2019)

David Cullinane: Climate change is about reducing carbon emissions. There are a number of ways in which we can reduce carbon emissions. One, which I will argue shortly, is through carbon tax increases. However, if people do not have the alternatives, they just pay whatever the carbon tax increase is, and if they do not change their behaviour, we do not reduce emissions. Would it be better to do an...

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Accounts of the Public Services
Chapter 9 - Greenhouse Gas-Related Financial Transactions: Discussion
(5 Nov 2019)

David Cullinane: That is the logic of it. It could be argued that, so far, it has not really changed people's behaviour and has been a form of raising revenue, and even the whole discussion around it has been about ring-fencing the money for investment in climate mitigation measures. If it does not change people's behaviour to the extent we would want it to, would it not be better, from a climate action...

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Accounts of the Public Services
Chapter 9 - Greenhouse Gas-Related Financial Transactions: Discussion
(5 Nov 2019)

David Cullinane: What Dr. Tovar Reaños is giving me are the challenges. I know what the challenges are. The ESRI opening statement noted that when simulating a carbon tax increase of €30, the ESRI estimates that carbon emissions will fall by 3.9%. What did carbon emissions fall by last year?

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Accounts of the Public Services
Chapter 9 - Greenhouse Gas-Related Financial Transactions: Discussion
(5 Nov 2019)

David Cullinane: The witnesses are seriously sitting there, telling me that if we increase carbon taxes by €30, we would see a reduction of 3.9% in carbon emissions, when we already have existing carbon taxes which are much more substantial. Why is it 3.9%? Why not 4% or 4.5%? Where did the 3.9% come from?

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Accounts of the Public Services
Chapter 9 - Greenhouse Gas-Related Financial Transactions: Discussion
(5 Nov 2019)

David Cullinane: How?

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Accounts of the Public Services
Chapter 9 - Greenhouse Gas-Related Financial Transactions: Discussion
(5 Nov 2019)

David Cullinane: How do people change their behaviour? I am trying to get to what people will do. Let us say that, in the ESRI model, carbon taxes increase by €30 and the ESRI estimate that carbon emissions will fall by 3.9%. What are people doing that will reduce the carbon emissions based on this model? The witnesses should tell me what an ordinary family will do if their home is heated by oil or...

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Accounts of the Public Services
Chapter 9 - Greenhouse Gas-Related Financial Transactions: Discussion
(5 Nov 2019)

David Cullinane: Excuse me, how will their bundle increase? For a customer with ESB or Airtricity, what bundle will they choose that will reduce their emissions? We do not have smart metering at the moment, although it is being rolled out. I imagine if that was rolled out it would provide people with data to enable them to monitor use and how they can make changes. I do not buy the logic put forward by...

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