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Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Accounts of the Public Services
Chapter 9 - Greenhouse Gas-Related Financial Transactions: Discussion
(5 Nov 2019)

David Cullinane: Exactly. It does not include farming or business.

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Accounts of the Public Services
Chapter 9 - Greenhouse Gas-Related Financial Transactions: Discussion
(5 Nov 2019)

David Cullinane: Yet, we know from the last figures we saw that agricultural emissions went up. Is that not correct? I have high regard for the ESRI as an organisation but I am really struggling to believe that an increase of €10 would see a fall of 3.9%. I would have to see more evidence. I am not convinced by it.

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Accounts of the Public Services
Chapter 9 - Greenhouse Gas-Related Financial Transactions: Discussion
(5 Nov 2019)

David Cullinane: That may be the case if people have alternatives. For example, I supported the sugar tax. That is a good example of where there is an alternative. I can order a Coke Zero instead of a Coke, and that changes my behaviour. The plastic bag levy is another example of taxes and levies that work. They can work where people have an easy alternative they can use. What about carbon tax increases...

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Accounts of the Public Services
Chapter 9 - Greenhouse Gas-Related Financial Transactions: Discussion
(5 Nov 2019)

David Cullinane: I still do not find the figures credible. Having said that, they are the figures we have. It is our job to probe and understand them. I am not convinced by the answers I have gotten. I want to move to the CSO. We are obliged to study the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General. Page 128 states that emissions from the European Union emissions trading system sectors do not count...

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Accounts of the Public Services
Chapter 9 - Greenhouse Gas-Related Financial Transactions: Discussion
(5 Nov 2019)

David Cullinane: I understand that but I am asking why. Does the CSO understand the logic of why they are not included?

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Accounts of the Public Services
Chapter 9 - Greenhouse Gas-Related Financial Transactions: Discussion
(5 Nov 2019)

David Cullinane: I understand that. I am not saying the CSO makes the decisions. Can the CSO explain to me why they are excluded?

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Accounts of the Public Services
Chapter 9 - Greenhouse Gas-Related Financial Transactions: Discussion
(5 Nov 2019)

David Cullinane: Is aviation part of that?

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Accounts of the Public Services
Chapter 9 - Greenhouse Gas-Related Financial Transactions: Discussion
(5 Nov 2019)

David Cullinane: Aviation is included. Aviation is a big polluter. Yet we are excluding aviation from the national emissions targets. To me that is extraordinary. What about private jets? Do we have any analysis on the use of private jets?

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Accounts of the Public Services
Chapter 9 - Greenhouse Gas-Related Financial Transactions: Discussion
(5 Nov 2019)

David Cullinane: Is there research on the carbon footprint of that sector?

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Accounts of the Public Services
Chapter 9 - Greenhouse Gas-Related Financial Transactions: Discussion
(5 Nov 2019)

David Cullinane: What about the CSO?

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Accounts of the Public Services
Chapter 9 - Greenhouse Gas-Related Financial Transactions: Discussion
(5 Nov 2019)

David Cullinane: There are 13 aircraft operators that participate in what is called the EU ETS. Is it the case that they are not included in the national emissions target?

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Accounts of the Public Services
Chapter 9 - Greenhouse Gas-Related Financial Transactions: Discussion
(5 Nov 2019)

David Cullinane: The Comptroller and Auditor General said in his report that emissions from ETS sector do not count towards national emissions targets.

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Accounts of the Public Services
Chapter 9 - Greenhouse Gas-Related Financial Transactions: Discussion
(5 Nov 2019)

David Cullinane: I imagine that is problematic since they are serious polluters.

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Accounts of the Public Services
Chapter 9 - Greenhouse Gas-Related Financial Transactions: Discussion
(5 Nov 2019)

David Cullinane: I welcome the witnesses. I welcome the opportunity to have a discussion on this issue and I thank the Chairman for facilitating it. I will start with the ESRI, which has done some analysis on carbon tax increases. Deputy Connolly spoke about the fact that carbon taxes are regressive. If carbon tax is regressive as a starting point, then as I understand it, the ESRI is arguing that either...

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Accounts of the Public Services
Chapter 9 - Greenhouse Gas-Related Financial Transactions: Discussion
(5 Nov 2019)

David Cullinane: The figures are contained in the ESRI opening statement. Would it not be better if we provided people with alternatives? For example, if we were making grants available for people to transition from heating their homes with oil or gas, would that not be a better way of using money rather than increasing the carbon tax? Would providing alternatives not be a better option than increasing...

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Accounts of the Public Services
Chapter 9 - Greenhouse Gas-Related Financial Transactions: Discussion
(5 Nov 2019)

David Cullinane: Why not?

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Accounts of the Public Services
Chapter 9 - Greenhouse Gas-Related Financial Transactions: Discussion
(5 Nov 2019)

David Cullinane: The ESRI looks at this purely from a revenue perspective.

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Accounts of the Public Services
Chapter 9 - Greenhouse Gas-Related Financial Transactions: Discussion
(5 Nov 2019)

David Cullinane: Climate change is about reducing carbon emissions. There are a number of ways in which we can reduce carbon emissions. One, which I will argue shortly, is through carbon tax increases. However, if people do not have the alternatives, they just pay whatever the carbon tax increase is, and if they do not change their behaviour, we do not reduce emissions. Would it be better to do an...

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Accounts of the Public Services
Chapter 9 - Greenhouse Gas-Related Financial Transactions: Discussion
(5 Nov 2019)

David Cullinane: That is the logic of it. It could be argued that, so far, it has not really changed people's behaviour and has been a form of raising revenue, and even the whole discussion around it has been about ring-fencing the money for investment in climate mitigation measures. If it does not change people's behaviour to the extent we would want it to, would it not be better, from a climate action...

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Accounts of the Public Services
Chapter 9 - Greenhouse Gas-Related Financial Transactions: Discussion
(5 Nov 2019)

David Cullinane: What Dr. Tovar Reaños is giving me are the challenges. I know what the challenges are. The ESRI opening statement noted that when simulating a carbon tax increase of €30, the ESRI estimates that carbon emissions will fall by 3.9%. What did carbon emissions fall by last year?

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