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Joint Oireachtas Committee on Assisted Dying: Assisted Dying in Europe: Discussion (26 Sep 2023)

Rónán Mullen: Thank you.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Assisted Dying: Assisted Dying in Europe: Discussion (26 Sep 2023)

Rónán Mullen: We will get a chance to ask the palliative care physicians whether they have oversized egos or whether they are afraid people will feel they are becoming a burden when euthanasia becomes lawful, or that they will lose hope. I like to think that the palliative care physicians from whom we may hear actually care about their patients and see at first-hand how they can best cope with their...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Assisted Dying: Assisted Dying in Europe: Discussion (26 Sep 2023)

Rónán Mullen: However, what does Mr. Luley do in those cases?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Assisted Dying: Assisted Dying in Europe: Discussion (26 Sep 2023)

Rónán Mullen: Does Mr. Luley want a change in the law however? I understand from him that he wants a change a change in the law to permit euthanasia. If I am wrong on that, I ask him to please correct me. What does he do in practice when he encounters people-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Assisted Dying: Assisted Dying in Europe: Discussion (26 Sep 2023)

Rónán Mullen: So he does not.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Assisted Dying: Assisted Dying in Europe: Discussion (26 Sep 2023)

Rónán Mullen: Mr. Luley has been at pains to tell us that we should not close our eyes to the possibility of legalising euthanasia as opposed to assisted suicide. I find it surprising he will not say he would like to see a similar change in the law in Switzerland to allow for euthanasia. What does he do when people request euthanasia? Does he send them away or counsel them to go to another country where...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Assisted Dying: Assisted Dying in Europe: Discussion (26 Sep 2023)

Rónán Mullen: And likewise for a Swiss person.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Assisted Dying: Assisted Dying in Europe: Discussion (26 Sep 2023)

Rónán Mullen: I am surprised by Mr. Luley's hesitation.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Assisted Dying: Developing a Legal Framework for Assisted Dying: Discussion (11 Jul 2023)

Rónán Mullen: I thank the witnesses for coming before the committee to assist us. I will start with Professor Jones. I am taking two points from what he is saying, which are to do with safeguards and eligibility. We have discussed the question of safeguards with lawyers over the past weeks. Do they work? Professor Jones seems to be suggesting that they do not.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Assisted Dying: Developing a Legal Framework for Assisted Dying: Discussion (11 Jul 2023)

Rónán Mullen: I have a last question for Professor Jones. Public opinion polls, not just in Ireland but also in other places, seem to suggest a wide acceptance of assisted dying, assisted suicide or euthanasia - call it whatever you wish. Does that not reflect an inevitable ethical shift in people's thinking?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Assisted Dying: Developing a Legal Framework for Assisted Dying: Discussion (11 Jul 2023)

Rónán Mullen: Professor Madden is saying that in the end, the ethical considerations must give way to the law and whatever the law is. Am I right in thinking that what she is saying is that doctors' perception of what is ethical may have to give way? Surely we must determine what is ethical and come to some kind of consensus on it before we can determine what is or should be lawful. To be blunt, is that...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Assisted Dying: Developing a Legal Framework for Assisted Dying: Discussion (11 Jul 2023)

Rónán Mullen: Does Professor Madden mean that she does not think that medical people's ethics should determine it? Would she not agree with me that it is the job of this committee to try to come to an agreement about what is ethical in each given situation and only on the basis of what we think is ethical to recommend a legal framework or indeed no change in the law? Is it not what we consider in our...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Assisted Dying: Developing a Legal Framework for Assisted Dying: Discussion (11 Jul 2023)

Rónán Mullen: What is right or wrong.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Assisted Dying: Developing a Legal Framework for Assisted Dying: Discussion (11 Jul 2023)

Rónán Mullen: Let us all say we came to an agreement that we think this is unethical for all sorts of reasons as to its impact on society. We could not credibly say we all think this is unethical but nonetheless we recommend a change in the law because not everybody would agree with us.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Assisted Dying: Developing a Legal Framework for Assisted Dying: Discussion (11 Jul 2023)

Rónán Mullen: I want to clarify. I got mixed up with my dates at the start and I suggested that New Zealand had introduced euthanasia in some form in 2017. It was only in 2021. In Victoria it was 2019. I suppose it goes to the point that this is all very early there. I would put it to our speakers that it is so recent that there is really no telling whether safeguards put in actually work, whereas if...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Assisted Dying: Developing a Legal Framework for Assisted Dying: Discussion (11 Jul 2023)

Rónán Mullen: I just do not understand how Professor Madden could say it is just a small minority if she does not see a distinction between a person refusing treatment and a person being entitled to ask for help. I put it to both Professor Donnelly and Professor Madden, why do they believe we should just be talking about a small minority if they feel that people should have a right to have their lives ended?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Assisted Dying: Developing a Legal Framework for Assisted Dying: Discussion (11 Jul 2023)

Rónán Mullen: We can aim for it.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Assisted Dying: Developing a Legal Framework for Assisted Dying: Discussion (11 Jul 2023)

Rónán Mullen: Some are more equal than others.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Assisted Dying: Developing a Legal Framework for Assisted Dying: Discussion (11 Jul 2023)

Rónán Mullen: I am not sure, but I think New Zealand might be 2017. Others may confirm whether I am accurate about that. Is Professor Jones's case that this is in countries where it is longer established?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Assisted Dying: Developing a Legal Framework for Assisted Dying: Discussion (11 Jul 2023)

Rónán Mullen: I want to probe further on that. I have heard some say that we are talking about the New Zealand or Victoria model, which has a narrow scope of eligibility, such as a terminal illness or a certain predicted period of life ban, to put it crudely. There is also the suggestion that the numbers do not always really go up, or if they do it is because there was a backlog waiting for legalisation.

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