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Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance Bill 2020: Committee Stage (16 Nov 2020)

Pearse Doherty: Can I ask a question? I know we have just agreed section 11 but there are a number of amendments that have not been dealt which propose the insertion of a new section 11. Can the Acting Chairman indicate when they will be taken?

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance Bill 2020: Committee Stage (16 Nov 2020)

Pearse Doherty: Amendments Nos. 6, 7 and perhaps 8. Some of the amendments proposing the insertion of a new section are in Deputy Boyd Barrett's name. We suspended discussion on them to-----

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance Bill 2020: Committee Stage (16 Nov 2020)

Pearse Doherty: No. We were discussing amendments Nos. 6 and 7, which were grouped. The Minister was in mid-flow when we parked discussion on them because there was a change of personnel. I am happy enough as long as we need to take them but we are now agreeing a new section 11 and as these amendments proposed to insert a new section 11 I am wondering about the order. Amendments Nos. 6 to 8, inclusive,...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance Bill 2020: Committee Stage (16 Nov 2020)

Pearse Doherty: Okay.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance Bill 2020: Committee Stage (16 Nov 2020)

Pearse Doherty: I thank the Acting Chairman.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance Bill 2020: Committee Stage (16 Nov 2020)

Pearse Doherty: Agreed.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance Bill 2020: Committee Stage (16 Nov 2020)

Pearse Doherty: Section 13 relates to the professional services withholding tax. I ask the Minister to outline the intention behind it.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance Bill 2020: Committee Stage (16 Nov 2020)

Pearse Doherty: On the Minister's last point, when is it intended that he will be providing that order to commence this section?

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance Bill 2020: Committee Stage (16 Nov 2020)

Pearse Doherty: While we pause, are we set up to go beyond section 24 this evening? Are the officials available or is it the intention to try to get to section 24 and leave it at that?

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance Bill 2020: Committee Stage (16 Nov 2020)

Pearse Doherty: I move amendment No. 122: In page 37, after line 35, to insert the following: “Report on applying CGT to all sales of property by REITs 17.The Minister shall, within six months of the passing of this Act, prepare and lay before Dáil Éireann a report on applying the full rate of Capital Gains Tax of 33 per cent to all disposals of property of the rental business of a REIT...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance Bill 2020: Committee Stage (16 Nov 2020)

Pearse Doherty: I will start by welcoming the figures the Minister provided because I do not think he has put them in the public domain before. The figure of €65.04 million represents a dividend withholding tax rate of 18.4%, which is significant progress and something to be welcomed. When I argued for the introduction of a dividend withholding tax in respect of these funds, I stated that it should...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance Bill 2020: Committee Stage (16 Nov 2020)

Pearse Doherty: I acknowledge the Minister’s collection of the data and I acknowledge also that it was an amendment that I put down in the Finance Bill and the Minister accepted that he would do that, which I welcome. I also acknowledge that there were changes last year. The point I have been making is that in years prior to that, we have been putting data on the record, have had debates on the...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance Bill 2020: Committee Stage (16 Nov 2020)

Pearse Doherty: We can bandy figures around - and I do not dispute the Minister’s figures - but these are the biggest landlords in the State. Let us call a spade a spade. The Minister for Finance is sitting here and saying that we should not charge those involved capital gains tax when they dispose of assets, and, by God, let us not ask them to pay corporation tax on their rental income. These are...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance Bill 2020: Committee Stage (16 Nov 2020)

Pearse Doherty: I have already acknowledged that point and I ask that we might get this issue clear and go a little bit deeper into it. What is the percentage of residential investors in a REIT compared with international non-resident investors? The structure has been set up in a way that it is for non-resident investors. Why is that? It is because if one is a resident investor one will have to pay some...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance Bill 2020: Committee Stage (16 Nov 2020)

Pearse Doherty: The Minister will get the information for me on non-resident investors. The latter comprise the majority of the investors. The Minister stated that these entities are taxed fairly, that I did not acknowledge that point and that he receives tax from them in another way. He does not charge these entities capital gains tax at 33% or corporation tax on the sky-high rents that they are charging...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance Bill 2020: Committee Stage (16 Nov 2020)

Pearse Doherty: At what rate?

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance Bill 2020: Committee Stage (16 Nov 2020)

Pearse Doherty: And what rate is that?

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance Bill 2020: Committee Stage (16 Nov 2020)

Pearse Doherty: It is 15%, and it can actually be reduced based on the taxation agreements. I am going to go back to answer my core question. Non-resident investors are taxed at a rate of 15% and they comprise the majority of investors in a REIT structure. The Minister is saying that we should not apply capital gains tax to these structures that dispose of assets, and which have made a killing to...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance Bill 2020: Committee Stage (16 Nov 2020)

Pearse Doherty: Let us compare that to a company that buys the same property. It has to pay corporation tax on the sky high rents that it is charging, and it has to pay tax of 33% on the disposal of the asset on the gains it has made. However, for non-resident investors, the tax liability is 15% at the most. This is what REITs do; they are for non-resident investors. That is what the structure is and...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance Bill 2020: Committee Stage (16 Nov 2020)

Pearse Doherty: As I have said, kicking, dragging and screaming. We might get to a point where the Minister may move on this, but the tax structure of these has not changed. They have been getting away with blue murder, and the problem here is not just tax. The problem is that they are significant players in the rental sector and set a baseline in terms of rents, and they are the largest landlords in the...

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