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Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement
Vote 43 - Office of Government Chief Information Officer
2020 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 4 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
(19 May 2022)

Brian Stanley: Sorry. My understanding of it is this. If a senior civil servant, in general, says he or she is gifting back €50,000 or €80,000 of his or her gross salary to the State, why can there not be some paper trail of that or evidence to show it is happening? I am not asking a question and, in my memory, this committee or any member of it has never asked a question, about the net...

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement
Vote 43 - Office of Government Chief Information Officer
2020 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 4 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
(19 May 2022)

Brian Stanley: I understand that.

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement
Vote 43 - Office of Government Chief Information Officer
2020 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 4 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
(19 May 2022)

Brian Stanley: That is being conflated though. Nobody is inquiring into the personal tax affairs of any senior civil servant, Accounting Officer or politician. We are simply asking what if somebody says they are gifting back to the State? In my own case, there is a document because I signed it. I sign it each year. Is that document there in the case of a senior civil servant? That is what I am asking....

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement
Vote 43 - Office of Government Chief Information Officer
2020 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 4 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
(19 May 2022)

Brian Stanley: Yes. The one-stop shop gives it to you every year.

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement
Vote 43 - Office of Government Chief Information Officer
2020 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 4 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
(19 May 2022)

Brian Stanley: Okay. There is a document. I wanted to clarify that. I will deal with the issue of construction inflation. Last week, the Government announced a fund in excess of €500 million to meet more than 70% of construction costs that are related to inflation. As I understand it, the scheme is not time-bound. It is retrospective and goes back to 1 January this year. It covers increased...

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement
Vote 43 - Office of Government Chief Information Officer
2020 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 4 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
(19 May 2022)

Brian Stanley: We are obviously dealing with private companies. I understand that. They have shareholders and have to have profit margins and so on. This could become an area of contention with Government Departments. The Department of Public Expenditure and Reform's role in terms of oversight is not just about authorising the signing of cheques. It must take an interest in this, which it has done over...

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement
Vote 43 - Office of Government Chief Information Officer
2020 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 4 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
(19 May 2022)

Brian Stanley: That is their feedback. What I am asking-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement
Vote 43 - Office of Government Chief Information Officer
2020 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 4 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
(19 May 2022)

Brian Stanley: I am aware of the pull factor in terms of them having other work. That is certainly the situation at the moment. It is with that in mind that I am asking the question. In terms of the oversight role of the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, there is potentially a big grey area there, where the public purse and the commercial world meets. I understand that. That is the business...

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement
Vote 43 - Office of Government Chief Information Officer
2020 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 4 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
(19 May 2022)

Brian Stanley: I want to move on to the HSE. As referred to earlier, the budget for this year is over €21 billion. I have no argument with that but there is a sense that even if we filled a tipper lorry with money and tipped it up outside the HSE's headquarters, the services at the other end would not materialise. I do not want to rhyme it all off here because I have taken this up with the...

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement
Vote 43 - Office of Government Chief Information Officer
2020 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 4 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
(19 May 2022)

Brian Stanley: They were told they needed an integrated financial management system eight years ago. Imagine the chairperson of a board or someone in middle management coming back to a body like this committee, eight years later, and saying that nothing will happen until the back end of 2025. I am open to correction, but I think that was the last date we got from them. That means it will be over 11 years...

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement
Vote 43 - Office of Government Chief Information Officer
2020 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 4 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
(19 May 2022)

Brian Stanley: Is Mr. Moloney concerned about the fact that eight years on, we are no closer to its delivery?

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement
Vote 43 - Office of Government Chief Information Officer
2020 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 4 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
(19 May 2022)

Brian Stanley: In the year and a half I have been in this position, the timetable has shifted. The last target I heard at a committee meeting was 2025. I am open to correction on that.

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement
Vote 43 - Office of Government Chief Information Officer
2020 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 4 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
(19 May 2022)

Brian Stanley: That is not acceptable. The Department of Public Expenditure and Reform and the Committee of Public Accounts need to be on the one page about this. Someone needs to start examining what is going on in our public health system and the failures there. Money is being frittered away. The amount of taxpayers' money made available is willingly increased each year. It is voted through in the...

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement
Vote 43 - Office of Government Chief Information Officer
2020 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 4 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
(19 May 2022)

Brian Stanley: The witness and the Deputy can bounce back and forward on this issue but I cannot let it go on all morning. We have had representatives of the Department of Health and the HSE before the committee on a number of occasions and will have them in again shortly. I hope we can be on the one page.

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement
Vote 43 - Office of Government Chief Information Officer
2020 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 4 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
(19 May 2022)

Brian Stanley: The Department of Public Expenditure and Reform oversees public spending. We are trying to highlight the frustration of the public and of good people in the health services. These are people who are doing good work in the HSE and in the Department. Our health system needs a particular focus. I know Mr. Moloney wants to be careful about how he answers questions. When he speaks about...

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement
Vote 43 - Office of Government Chief Information Officer
2020 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 4 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
(19 May 2022)

Brian Stanley: The points in regard to the asks of the Department have been expressed well. I call Deputy Devlin.

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement
Vote 43 - Office of Government Chief Information Officer
2020 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 4 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
(19 May 2022)

Brian Stanley: The Deputy has gone well over time, so I might tie in a related question of my own for everyone’s benefit. I mentioned dental services earlier. We understand that Mr. Moloney’s Department is not going to deal with the minutiae of the interactions between the Department of Health and the HSE. Nevertheless, it sanctions the large health budget every year for both organisations....

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement
Vote 43 - Office of Government Chief Information Officer
2020 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 4 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
(19 May 2022)

Brian Stanley: I know that.

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement
Vote 43 - Office of Government Chief Information Officer
2020 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 4 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
(19 May 2022)

Brian Stanley: I will refer to the national broadband plan for moment. Mr. Moloney’s Department took a great interest in this. I have a letter here from the Department dated 16 April 2019. Last week, I raised with the Taoiseach the monitoring of this project, about which I have articulated my huge concerns. There was a single contractor and all of the other bidders backed out. I know the reasons...

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement
Vote 43 - Office of Government Chief Information Officer
2020 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 4 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
(19 May 2022)

Brian Stanley: There are huge concerns. Some of the reasons given include blocked ducts. For example, when they go out and push cables through ducts, they find they are blocked. One would expect that to happen if ducts are unused. There are issues related to Covid and how that was stretched and stretched, perhaps further than it should have been. It is the first time I have seen committed to paper that...

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