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Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (10 Jul 2025)

Séamus McGrath: It is.

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (10 Jul 2025)

Séamus McGrath: On the correspondence, when we had CHI before us, it was able to give us the legal costs involved for the dispute relating to the former chief executive. The representatives were not in a position to give us a figure for CHI's own legal costs. We sought that from them; they committed to provide it. Has there been any correspondence in that regard since?

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (10 Jul 2025)

Séamus McGrath: That is fine. Can we just ensure we get something back on that? It is critical information that we should know.

Public Accounts Committee: 2023 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer
Chapter 3 - Vote accounting and budget management
(10 Jul 2025)

Séamus McGrath: I thank the witnesses for being here. I will try to use my time as efficiently as I can. I will pick up on housing, as I am the party's housing spokesperson. In the context of the upcoming NDP review, the housing Minister has said he is treating the housing crisis as an emergency. I fully agree with that. Are we prepared in the NDP review to treat it as an emergency with regard to our...

Public Accounts Committee: 2023 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer
Chapter 3 - Vote accounting and budget management
(10 Jul 2025)

Séamus McGrath: The figure currently being bandied about is that we are spending €6.8 billion per annum on housing. It is one of the highest figures in the European Union and that is welcome. However, we have a particular emergency in this country. Are we prepared to significantly upscale that figure in the NDP review?

Public Accounts Committee: 2023 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer
Chapter 3 - Vote accounting and budget management
(10 Jul 2025)

Séamus McGrath: Yes, directly and indirectly.

Public Accounts Committee: 2023 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer
Chapter 3 - Vote accounting and budget management
(10 Jul 2025)

Séamus McGrath: However, the overall figure is €6.8 billion.

Public Accounts Committee: 2023 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer
Chapter 3 - Vote accounting and budget management
(10 Jul 2025)

Séamus McGrath: I agree with Deputy McAuliffe about the tenant in situ scheme. Some local authorities are not participating in it for funding reasons. Currently, a pipeline of schemes in the Department of housing are stalled because of funding issues. In a crisis, that seems ludicrous. The NDP is coming but I want an assurance that it will be treated as an emergency as the Minister for housing has...

Public Accounts Committee: 2023 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer
Chapter 3 - Vote accounting and budget management
(10 Jul 2025)

Séamus McGrath: It is fair to say - I apologise for interrupting, but we are caught for time - that we have learned a lot of lessons from that debacle.

Public Accounts Committee: 2023 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer
Chapter 3 - Vote accounting and budget management
(10 Jul 2025)

Séamus McGrath: Is Mr. Moloney confident that we will not see that scale of overrun in future projects?

Public Accounts Committee: 2023 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer
Chapter 3 - Vote accounting and budget management
(10 Jul 2025)

Séamus McGrath: Mr. Moloney is confident that we will not see that scale of overrun of budgets.

Public Accounts Committee: 2023 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer
Chapter 3 - Vote accounting and budget management
(10 Jul 2025)

Séamus McGrath: That is not the same as confidence.

Public Accounts Committee: 2023 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer
Chapter 3 - Vote accounting and budget management
(10 Jul 2025)

Séamus McGrath: Okay. I will accept Mr. Moloney's hope.

Public Accounts Committee: 2023 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer
Chapter 3 - Vote accounting and budget management
(10 Jul 2025)

Séamus McGrath: I understand.

Public Accounts Committee: 2023 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer
Chapter 3 - Vote accounting and budget management
(10 Jul 2025)

Séamus McGrath: I understand that. The Comptroller and Auditor General sets out Mr. Moloney's Department's role and it is an onerous one, as it is central in setting standards and procedures for financial accountability and governance of public bodies and the evaluation of public spending and investment. It is an onerous task. We all appreciate that. However, in projects other than capital ones that...

Public Accounts Committee: 2023 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer
Chapter 3 - Vote accounting and budget management
(10 Jul 2025)

Séamus McGrath: What frustrates people is the lack of accountability. Ultimately, no one is held responsible and answerable for these projects. We see review after review but there is no accountability. Will we see accountability in the future?

Public Accounts Committee: 2023 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer
Chapter 3 - Vote accounting and budget management
(10 Jul 2025)

Séamus McGrath: Okay. With respect to the State's expenditure on external management consultants, a figure was quoted that, in 2023, the State spent €800 million on external management consultants. I suspect that figure has increased. I would argue there is an overreliance on external management consultants. Is Mr. Moloney concerned about that as the Accounting Officer for the Department of...

Public Accounts Committee: 2023 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer
Chapter 3 - Vote accounting and budget management
(10 Jul 2025)

Séamus McGrath: Is there an up-to-date figure for what we are spending on external management consultants?

Public Accounts Committee: 2023 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer
Chapter 3 - Vote accounting and budget management
(10 Jul 2025)

Séamus McGrath: It is a newspaper article that says that, in 2023, the figure was €800 million.

Public Accounts Committee: 2023 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer
Chapter 3 - Vote accounting and budget management
(10 Jul 2025)

Séamus McGrath: I understand that.

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