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Public Accounts Committee: Housing Schemes Expenditure: Think-tank for Action on Social Change (20 May 2021)

Catherine Murphy: No.

Public Accounts Committee: Housing Schemes Expenditure: Think-tank for Action on Social Change (20 May 2021)

Catherine Murphy: Yes, but it is only the first page.

Public Accounts Committee: Housing Schemes Expenditure: Think-tank for Action on Social Change (20 May 2021)

Catherine Murphy: Yes.

Public Accounts Committee: Housing Schemes Expenditure: Think-tank for Action on Social Change (20 May 2021)

Catherine Murphy: Can I stop Dr. Sweeney? We are still on the table. We need to move on to the chart.

Public Accounts Committee: Housing Schemes Expenditure: Think-tank for Action on Social Change (20 May 2021)

Catherine Murphy: Yes.

Public Accounts Committee: Housing Schemes Expenditure: Think-tank for Action on Social Change (20 May 2021)

Catherine Murphy: We can. For anyone watching from outside I wish to state that, with the agreement of the committee, we will publish the presentation on the committee's web page because it is appearing for those of us at the committee meeting but it does not appear to be appearing for those who are watching. We will publish the presentation afterwards.

Public Accounts Committee: Housing Schemes Expenditure: Think-tank for Action on Social Change (20 May 2021)

Catherine Murphy: I thank Dr. Sweeney for his very helpful presentation, which will stimulate discussion. I open the debate to the members of the committee. Each member will have six minutes. I ask that members virtually raise their hands to indicate when they wish to contribute and I will take members in the order that they indicate. As our time is limited I will keep them to their time and will allow...

Public Accounts Committee: Housing Schemes Expenditure: Think-tank for Action on Social Change (20 May 2021)

Catherine Murphy: Deputy Burke's time is up. I ask Dr. Sweeney to provide the source along with the information he is going to forward to the committee so that Deputy Burke will have it to hand immediately. I must move on because our time is limited.

Public Accounts Committee: Housing Schemes Expenditure: Think-tank for Action on Social Change (20 May 2021)

Catherine Murphy: I call Deputy Verona Murphy.

Public Accounts Committee: Housing Schemes Expenditure: Think-tank for Action on Social Change (20 May 2021)

Catherine Murphy: There is a long-standing commitment to look at the eligibility criteria used for income grounds and qualification to housing waiting lists. The Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage issues the limits for HAP. The local authorities do not have discretion except with the risk of homelessness. Rent assistance is with Department of Social Protection.

Public Accounts Committee: Housing Schemes Expenditure: Think-tank for Action on Social Change (20 May 2021)

Catherine Murphy: The next contributor is Deputy Munster. I am calling the contributors in the order they are showing my screen. Deputy Devlin made the point that members are not being called in the order in which they indicated, but I am calling them in the order in which they appear on my screen. That is by way of explanation.

Public Accounts Committee: Housing Schemes Expenditure: Think-tank for Action on Social Change (20 May 2021)

Catherine Murphy: The Deputy's time has expired. Time permitting, I will allow her back in.

Public Accounts Committee: Housing Schemes Expenditure: Think-tank for Action on Social Change (20 May 2021)

Catherine Murphy: Deputy Hourigan has asked that her apologies be noted. I would like to pose a number of questions. If any member would like to come back in, he or she should raise a hand and I will call him or her in the order indicated on my screen. I recall very well the debate in the House on the introduction of the housing assistance payment, HAP, when it was stated that unless it was accompanied by...

Public Accounts Committee: Housing Schemes Expenditure: Think-tank for Action on Social Change (20 May 2021)

Catherine Murphy: When we are told that the spend is €3.5 billion, HAP is a component of that spend. Am I correct that the more the HAP spend grows, the less we have to spend on direct build?

Public Accounts Committee: Housing Schemes Expenditure: Think-tank for Action on Social Change (20 May 2021)

Catherine Murphy: The local authority completions and acquisitions are relatively similar for 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018 and 2019. We do not yet have the figures for 2020 which, owing to the pandemic, are likely to be lower. I understand total output was approximately 21,000, a component of which was local authority build. We can get those figures. The figures for 2015 to 2019 are low when one considers the...

Public Accounts Committee: Housing Schemes Expenditure: Think-tank for Action on Social Change (20 May 2021)

Catherine Murphy: That is okay. I can do that myself. In terms of the capital spend, rents are increasing right across the country by incredible amounts. In Maynooth last week we saw that some of the houses that were acquired by a developer are likely to be somewhere in the region of €1,900 to €2,000 a month. That is an incredible amount of money and very unaffordable for most. That puts...

Public Accounts Committee: Housing Schemes Expenditure: Think-tank for Action on Social Change (20 May 2021)

Catherine Murphy: The rent for a tenancy must be notified to the RTB so we know what the rents are in an area but given the top-ups, are we getting a very distorted picture? I am aware of some of the top-up amounts. We have all seen them. They have been a feature for some time. When the rent supplement limits were lowered after the crash to try to keep rents down, top-ups started to be a feature and they...

Public Accounts Committee: Housing Schemes Expenditure: Think-tank for Action on Social Change (20 May 2021)

Catherine Murphy: The €1 billion in current spending is constant, so if we have a €3.5 billion budget for housing it is really €2.5 billion. Is it the case that it is a growing number as rents are going up?

Public Accounts Committee: Housing Schemes Expenditure: Think-tank for Action on Social Change (20 May 2021)

Catherine Murphy: I do not see any other indications from Members that they wish to speak, so I remind them to put up their hand if they want to ask further questions. Dr. Sweeney mentioned the substantial difference in long leases. There have been lease agreements right through from 2009. We can see the numbers he has provided us with on the top line of the first chart. However, there is a substantial...

Public Accounts Committee: Housing Schemes Expenditure: Think-tank for Action on Social Change (20 May 2021)

Catherine Murphy: Even if we do not have an asset at the end.

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