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Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (15 Nov 2018)

Seán Fleming: It will be dealt with this week. We have concluded the discussion on the work programme. There being no other business, we will suspend while the witnesses take their seats.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 9: Office of the Revenue Commissioners
Chapter 17: Revenue's Progress in Tackling Tobacco Smuggling
Chapter 18: Management of High Wealth Individuals' Tax Liabilities
Chapter 19: Corporation Tax Losses
(15 Nov 2018)

Seán Fleming: We are dealing with the Appropriation Accounts 2017, Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners; and from the Comptroller and Auditor General's report, Chapter 17 - Revenue's progress in tackling tobacco smuggling, Chapter 18 - management of high wealth individuals' tax liabilities, and Chapter 19 - corporation tax losses. The committee had many meetings on the last issue during the year...

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 9: Office of the Revenue Commissioners
Chapter 17: Revenue's Progress in Tackling Tobacco Smuggling
Chapter 18: Management of High Wealth Individuals' Tax Liabilities
Chapter 19: Corporation Tax Losses
(15 Nov 2018)

Seán Fleming: I thank Mr. McCarthy. I now ask Mr. Cody to make his opening statement.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 9: Office of the Revenue Commissioners
Chapter 17: Revenue's Progress in Tackling Tobacco Smuggling
Chapter 18: Management of High Wealth Individuals' Tax Liabilities
Chapter 19: Corporation Tax Losses
(15 Nov 2018)

Seán Fleming: I thank Mr. Cody. We have a number of chapters to discuss. Today's first speaker is Deputy Cassells, who has 20 minutes. He will be followed by Deputy Cullinane, who will have 15 minutes, and Deputies Jonathan O'Brien, Catherine Connolly and Catherine Murphy.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 9: Office of the Revenue Commissioners
Chapter 17: Revenue's Progress in Tackling Tobacco Smuggling
Chapter 18: Management of High Wealth Individuals' Tax Liabilities
Chapter 19: Corporation Tax Losses
(15 Nov 2018)

Seán Fleming: They are up on the screen.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 9: Office of the Revenue Commissioners
Chapter 17: Revenue's Progress in Tackling Tobacco Smuggling
Chapter 18: Management of High Wealth Individuals' Tax Liabilities
Chapter 19: Corporation Tax Losses
(15 Nov 2018)

Seán Fleming: I allowed a few extra minutes for the slideshow on the factory in County Louth. As I had hoped it would be picked it up, I gave the first speaker a little extra time.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 9: Office of the Revenue Commissioners
Chapter 17: Revenue's Progress in Tackling Tobacco Smuggling
Chapter 18: Management of High Wealth Individuals' Tax Liabilities
Chapter 19: Corporation Tax Losses
(15 Nov 2018)

Seán Fleming: We respect that.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 9: Office of the Revenue Commissioners
Chapter 17: Revenue's Progress in Tackling Tobacco Smuggling
Chapter 18: Management of High Wealth Individuals' Tax Liabilities
Chapter 19: Corporation Tax Losses
(15 Nov 2018)

Seán Fleming: Deputy O'Brien has indicated.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 9: Office of the Revenue Commissioners
Chapter 17: Revenue's Progress in Tackling Tobacco Smuggling
Chapter 18: Management of High Wealth Individuals' Tax Liabilities
Chapter 19: Corporation Tax Losses
(15 Nov 2018)

Seán Fleming: We got the figure for the 17 high value appeals before the Tax Appeals Commission. They went through Mr. Cody's office before they went to it, so he should know about the cases. Three of them-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 9: Office of the Revenue Commissioners
Chapter 17: Revenue's Progress in Tackling Tobacco Smuggling
Chapter 18: Management of High Wealth Individuals' Tax Liabilities
Chapter 19: Corporation Tax Losses
(15 Nov 2018)

Seán Fleming: -----were over €100 million each. Deputy O'Brien has the schedule.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 9: Office of the Revenue Commissioners
Chapter 17: Revenue's Progress in Tackling Tobacco Smuggling
Chapter 18: Management of High Wealth Individuals' Tax Liabilities
Chapter 19: Corporation Tax Losses
(15 Nov 2018)

Seán Fleming: We had a former chairperson who was female.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 9: Office of the Revenue Commissioners
Chapter 17: Revenue's Progress in Tackling Tobacco Smuggling
Chapter 18: Management of High Wealth Individuals' Tax Liabilities
Chapter 19: Corporation Tax Losses
(15 Nov 2018)

Seán Fleming: No timescale need be mentioned.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 9: Office of the Revenue Commissioners
Chapter 17: Revenue's Progress in Tackling Tobacco Smuggling
Chapter 18: Management of High Wealth Individuals' Tax Liabilities
Chapter 19: Corporation Tax Losses
(15 Nov 2018)

Seán Fleming: What is preventing the Revenue Commissioners from doing it? They are not obliged to do it but what is preventing them from doing it? Could it be done without legislation?

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 9: Office of the Revenue Commissioners
Chapter 17: Revenue's Progress in Tackling Tobacco Smuggling
Chapter 18: Management of High Wealth Individuals' Tax Liabilities
Chapter 19: Corporation Tax Losses
(15 Nov 2018)

Seán Fleming: The companies give the Revenue that information.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 9: Office of the Revenue Commissioners
Chapter 17: Revenue's Progress in Tackling Tobacco Smuggling
Chapter 18: Management of High Wealth Individuals' Tax Liabilities
Chapter 19: Corporation Tax Losses
(15 Nov 2018)

Seán Fleming: We understand the Revenue does not have the legal basis to do it now but maybe there should be a legal basis. I am sorry for butting in but I envisage that down the road, the Oireachtas could take a different view on a sunset clause on trading losses brought forward versus capital investment. They might take a different view of a different sunset clause period if they were minded to do that...

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 9: Office of the Revenue Commissioners
Chapter 17: Revenue's Progress in Tackling Tobacco Smuggling
Chapter 18: Management of High Wealth Individuals' Tax Liabilities
Chapter 19: Corporation Tax Losses
(15 Nov 2018)

Seán Fleming: The Oireachtas would have to pass legislation on the blind with no basis for knowing what will happen when it passes and see what it throws up.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 9: Office of the Revenue Commissioners
Chapter 17: Revenue's Progress in Tackling Tobacco Smuggling
Chapter 18: Management of High Wealth Individuals' Tax Liabilities
Chapter 19: Corporation Tax Losses
(15 Nov 2018)

Seán Fleming: A rule would have to be introduced-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 9: Office of the Revenue Commissioners
Chapter 17: Revenue's Progress in Tackling Tobacco Smuggling
Chapter 18: Management of High Wealth Individuals' Tax Liabilities
Chapter 19: Corporation Tax Losses
(15 Nov 2018)

Seán Fleming: -----based on the previous losses first.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 9: Office of the Revenue Commissioners
Chapter 17: Revenue's Progress in Tackling Tobacco Smuggling
Chapter 18: Management of High Wealth Individuals' Tax Liabilities
Chapter 19: Corporation Tax Losses
(15 Nov 2018)

Seán Fleming: Is Mr. Cody saying our recommendation is a legislative one?

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 9: Office of the Revenue Commissioners
Chapter 17: Revenue's Progress in Tackling Tobacco Smuggling
Chapter 18: Management of High Wealth Individuals' Tax Liabilities
Chapter 19: Corporation Tax Losses
(15 Nov 2018)

Seán Fleming: Okay. I take his point.

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