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Joint Oireachtas Committee on Children and Youth Affairs: Pre-legislative Scrutiny of the General Scheme of the Certain Institutional Burials (Authorised Interventions) Bill (Resumed) (18 May 2021)

Roderic O'Gorman: Like the Deputy and many others, I am not a scientific expert in this field by any means. My understanding is that the wide range of techniques that the legislation makes provision for, both DNA and other types of identification process, are primarily about who these individuals are and that is what the legislation is designed to achieve. In terms of the information that this agency...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Children and Youth Affairs: Pre-legislative Scrutiny of the General Scheme of the Certain Institutional Burials (Authorised Interventions) Bill (Resumed) (18 May 2021)

Roderic O'Gorman: My understanding is that anyone who has information about potential criminal activity has an obligation to engage with the relevant State authorities. The Garda recently set up special lines and an email address, and called on anyone who knows about criminal activity in mother and baby homes to contact it. We all welcome that. The obligation exists for anyone and everyone, including the...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Children and Youth Affairs: Pre-legislative Scrutiny of the General Scheme of the Certain Institutional Burials (Authorised Interventions) Bill (Resumed) (18 May 2021)

Roderic O'Gorman: My understanding, having spoken to officials and listened to experts, is that the appropriateness of the particular techniques very much depend on the particular site. It depends on the condition of the site and the condition of the remains at the site. The Deputy is right when he says that it is absolutely correct that this agency applies the right techniques to the particular site....

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Children and Youth Affairs: Pre-legislative Scrutiny of the General Scheme of the Certain Institutional Burials (Authorised Interventions) Bill (Resumed) (18 May 2021)

Roderic O'Gorman: I thank the Senator. I believe she is correct; all of us must bear in mind that uncertainty around raising expectations and hope. We are providing for this intervention, and in particular, for DNA identification to enable identification as far as is possible. We cannot be certain what is possible, however. The experts who spoke at the pre-legislative scrutiny stage reminded us of the...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Children and Youth Affairs: Pre-legislative Scrutiny of the General Scheme of the Certain Institutional Burials (Authorised Interventions) Bill (Resumed) (18 May 2021)

Roderic O'Gorman: In terms of this Government or another Government making a decision on a site other than Tuam, obviously, the same set of factors are set out in the legislation. Any Government and any Minister making a decision would obviously be advised to listen to the views of family members, which can be diverse and different, and we must acknowledge that. Certainly, listening to and engaging with...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Children and Youth Affairs: Pre-legislative Scrutiny of the General Scheme of the Certain Institutional Burials (Authorised Interventions) Bill (Resumed) (18 May 2021)

Roderic O'Gorman: I thank the Deputy. As I said before, the sole disapplication we are seeking to achieve with this legislation is around the actual carrying out of an exhumation, which is one of the powers set out in the Coroner's Act and in the Local Government Act. We do not believe it is appropriate that three bodies would have jurisdiction over an exhumation.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Children and Youth Affairs: Pre-legislative Scrutiny of the General Scheme of the Certain Institutional Burials (Authorised Interventions) Bill (Resumed) (18 May 2021)

Roderic O'Gorman: There is a coronial jurisdiction. It exists and we all know this. It applies in these circumstances. We are seeking to disapply two elements of it that we see as problematic in terms of the two key roles the agency is trying to achieve, which are exhumation and identification. Barring this, nothing in the legislation interferes with existing coronial jurisdiction. I got the sense the...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Children and Youth Affairs: Pre-legislative Scrutiny of the General Scheme of the Certain Institutional Burials (Authorised Interventions) Bill (Resumed) (18 May 2021)

Roderic O'Gorman: I thank the Deputy and I absolutely understand. To clarify, determination on manifest inappropriateness will be made by the Government and not by the agency. Once the agency is established it will do the work so there will be no discretion on the part of the agency. It is a huge thing to exhume a body. In Ireland we have a culture of a resting place being a resting place and it is very...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Children and Youth Affairs: Pre-legislative Scrutiny of the General Scheme of the Certain Institutional Burials (Authorised Interventions) Bill (Resumed) (18 May 2021)

Roderic O'Gorman: I might speak generally to the issue of records first and then deal specifically with the role of this agency. Access to information is absolutely crucial to survivors and indeed to a wider group of people including adoptees. Last week we brought forward the draft heads of the birth information and tracing legislation which provides the best guarantee of access to all information and I look...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Children and Youth Affairs: Pre-legislative Scrutiny of the General Scheme of the Certain Institutional Burials (Authorised Interventions) Bill (Resumed) (18 May 2021)

Roderic O'Gorman: In terms of its accountability, the agency will have a director and as I indicated earlier, that director will be accountable to the Oireachtas committees. There will be an obligation to provide an annual report on the activities of the agency as well as its interactions with other State agencies. I am conscious that what this agency will be doing is incredibly sensitive in terms of the...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Children and Youth Affairs: Pre-legislative Scrutiny of the General Scheme of the Certain Institutional Burials (Authorised Interventions) Bill (Resumed) (18 May 2021)

Roderic O'Gorman: The reasoning behind this legislation is, ultimately, an understanding that was felt across the entire country and a repugnance that was felt across the entire country when it became clear in 2014 and 2015, following the work of Catherine Corless and others, that the remains of infants and children were treated in such an appalling manner. Not only were they denied, everything about the...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Children and Youth Affairs: Pre-legislative Scrutiny of the General Scheme of the Certain Institutional Burials (Authorised Interventions) Bill (Resumed) (18 May 2021)

Roderic O'Gorman: In the context of the interventions we undertake in Tuam, or in any other sites where a decision is made to intervene, I hope we are in the position to provide information and potentially provide families with the remains of infants and children who died in these institutions, bearing in mind the concerns flagged by Deputies earlier about the potential success or otherwise of DNA and other...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Children and Youth Affairs: Pre-legislative Scrutiny of the General Scheme of the Certain Institutional Burials (Authorised Interventions) Bill (Resumed) (18 May 2021)

Roderic O'Gorman: The comment I made about three agencies being involved at any one time is specifically in terms of their exhumation powers. This is what we seek to address in the disapplication of the coroner's exhumation power and the disapplication of the local authority's exhumation power. With regard to the coroner conducting its wider investigatory powers, there is no clash on that and the role of the...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Children and Youth Affairs: Pre-legislative Scrutiny of the General Scheme of the Certain Institutional Burials (Authorised Interventions) Bill (Resumed) (18 May 2021)

Roderic O'Gorman: The two bodies are doing two different things. It is not a case of doing the same thing.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Children and Youth Affairs: Pre-legislative Scrutiny of the General Scheme of the Certain Institutional Burials (Authorised Interventions) Bill (Resumed) (18 May 2021)

Roderic O'Gorman: The understanding is that the powers of the coroner already apply and the jurisdiction or the coroner already exists. I am not sure what the clear benefit would be to repeat those powers within the context of the agency and in the particular circumstances. As I said earlier, if there are concerns around the information the agency discovers in the context of its work, which would not be...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Children and Youth Affairs: Pre-legislative Scrutiny of the General Scheme of the Certain Institutional Burials (Authorised Interventions) Bill (Resumed) (18 May 2021)

Roderic O'Gorman: Regarding the role and the position of coronial services around the country, that is a matter for my colleague, the Minister for Justice, Deputy Humphreys, because coronial jurisdiction falls within that Department. My understanding is that a wider review is being undertaken in that regard, and I am happy to provide input into that review. It is also important to state that there is an...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Children and Youth Affairs: Pre-legislative Scrutiny of the General Scheme of the Certain Institutional Burials (Authorised Interventions) Bill (Resumed) (18 May 2021)

Roderic O'Gorman: I am happy to engage with the Minister for Justice to ensure that resourcing does not become an issue. Indeed, what we are seeking to do with the creation of this agency is to have resource-intensive elements of this process addressed through this agency. A relevant example would be the significant resources which will be required for an exhumation on the scale and complexity, initially, of...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Children and Youth Affairs: Pre-legislative Scrutiny of the General Scheme of the Certain Institutional Burials (Authorised Interventions) Bill (Resumed) (18 May 2021)

Roderic O'Gorman: Can I just-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Children and Youth Affairs: Pre-legislative Scrutiny of the General Scheme of the Certain Institutional Burials (Authorised Interventions) Bill (Resumed) (18 May 2021)

Roderic O'Gorman: That is fine, and I am sorry.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Children and Youth Affairs: Pre-legislative Scrutiny of the General Scheme of the Certain Institutional Burials (Authorised Interventions) Bill (Resumed) (18 May 2021)

Roderic O'Gorman: I thank Deputy Murnane O'Connor. We did cover a couple of those points earlier, so I will address some of the points that did not arise previously. The Deputy asked about FSI and its powers. We have set a power for FSI to engage in contracts where it may not have the required facilities. FSI has significant expertise and capabilities, and I acknowledge that at the outset. However, where...

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