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Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
(26 Apr 2018)

Alan Kelly: Are the people who were hired under that process still in place? Is that unit still operating?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
(26 Apr 2018)

Alan Kelly: I am not asking for names, but the people working there-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
(26 Apr 2018)

Alan Kelly: On the immigrant investor programme, IIP, under the Irish Naturalisation and Immigration Service, INIS, how does Ms McPhillips feel this is working? Does she feel it is working well?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
(26 Apr 2018)

Alan Kelly: I will get to my specific issues first. I supported this. I think it is a very good project. We have had correspondence on this. I want to know if all the money is being spent, if everything is being processed in time, that there are no conflicts of interest in the Department regarding it, and that we will see greater funding coming through it soon.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
(26 Apr 2018)

Alan Kelly: I accept that. Mr. Kirrane is not aware of any conflicts of interest in the operation of this scheme.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
(26 Apr 2018)

Alan Kelly: I am aware.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
(26 Apr 2018)

Alan Kelly: Okay, that is fine.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
(26 Apr 2018)

Alan Kelly: I think it is a very good programme. I have concerns about it, which is why I raised it, but I may take that up with the officials separately rather than taking up time here. I use it as an example of where we need to go regarding the future work in the Department of Justice and Equality. There is an issue of whether this should be a core issue for the Department of Justice and Equality...

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
(26 Apr 2018)

Alan Kelly: Yes. On the breakdown of these costs, where are the costs for Mr. Justice Iarfhlaith O'Neill's review in these figures? They came in the same year.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
(26 Apr 2018)

Alan Kelly: Will the Department confirm that to me?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
(26 Apr 2018)

Alan Kelly: Will Ms McPhillips send the committee a breakdown of these costs?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
(26 Apr 2018)

Alan Kelly: I want to raise a couple of issues. I have received a letter which purports to be from a member of staff at the Department of Justice and Equality. To be fair, the detail in it, in terms of the workings of the Department, would suggest it is from a member of staff and it raises some very interesting questions. On whistleblowers, the committee has before it today a fairly detailed letter on...

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
(26 Apr 2018)

Alan Kelly: I thank Ms McPhillips for her response. I continually receive letters about a case involving a person who was in the Irish Prison Service in the 1980s. I do not propose to mention any names but the case has been written about extensively and there was a shooting in the prison. Does Ms McPhillips believe the Department has taken a duty of care in terms of its dealing with this case?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
(26 Apr 2018)

Alan Kelly: Okay.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
(26 Apr 2018)

Alan Kelly: The Chairman knows this case as well as I do. We have both met the person concerned. Had the process in place now been in place some time ago, we may not be discussing this issue. I believe that process needs to be reviewed again.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
(26 Apr 2018)

Alan Kelly: While I agree with Ms McPhillips, many years have passed in regard to this case and there is a genuine grievance involved. I am asking that that be taken on board. There are media reports on another case, in respect of which the Workplace Relations Commission, WRC, has made an adjudication. This adjudication is costing the taxpayer money. Following on from this adjudication the head of...

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
(26 Apr 2018)

Alan Kelly: That is the belief of most people.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
(26 Apr 2018)

Alan Kelly: I am not asking Ms McPhillips to discuss an individual case. I find it bizarre that the WRC would adjudicate on a case and the Irish Prison Service would challenge it. This is very strange and contrary to the spirit of what has been agreed in regard to the treatment of whistleblowers. The letter which was sent to me by a staff member states that despite the protected disclosures...

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
(26 Apr 2018)

Alan Kelly: That is as I expected. Did the option of taking legal proceedings against individuals form part of that training, even if they were in the protected disclosure process?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
(26 Apr 2018)

Alan Kelly: No.

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