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Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Scheme of Data-Sharing and Governance Bill: Discussion (Resumed) (23 May 2017)

Gerry Horkan: I welcome from Digital Rights Ireland Dr. Dennis Jennings, adviser; Mr. Daragh O'Brien, data protection expert; and Mr. Antóin Ó Lachtnáin, director. I also welcome Mr. Denis Kelleher, barrister-at-law. The committee is resuming its scrutiny of the draft general scheme of the Data-Sharing and Governance Bill. By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Scheme of Data-Sharing and Governance Bill: Discussion (Resumed) (23 May 2017)

Gerry Horkan: Okay. I call Deputy Burke.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Scheme of Data-Sharing and Governance Bill: Discussion (Resumed) (23 May 2017)

Gerry Horkan: In conclusion, I thank all of our members and witnesses. Some were looking in on Thursday when we were asking various questions of our witnesses. Data sharing in itself is possibly a very good thing if the rules and the governance are there. We have all benefited from technology and the internet. I would have been a beneficiary of Dr. Jennings as a student of University College Dublin,...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Scheme of Data-Sharing and Governance Bill: Discussion (Resumed) (23 May 2017)

Gerry Horkan: He never examined me. He was just in charge of computing services.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Scheme of Data-Sharing and Governance Bill: Discussion (Resumed) (23 May 2017)

Gerry Horkan: I benefited from the services and systems that he was providing, although they were very much in their infancy relative to where they are now.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Scheme of Data-Sharing and Governance Bill: Discussion (Resumed) (23 May 2017)

Gerry Horkan: There was a time when one had to join a society to access the internet. One could not just get on the web. We have come a long way and much of it is very positive, but we as a committee need to write back. We have to form our views on this particular legislation. That is the job of pre-legislative scrutiny. I think the message from all here is that it is not fit for purpose and not where...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Business of Joint Committee (18 May 2017)

Gerry Horkan: Apologies have been received from Deputy Pearse Doherty. I propose we go into private session to deal with housekeeping matters. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Scheme of Data-Sharing and Governance Bill: Discussion (18 May 2017)

Gerry Horkan: We are meeting to engage in pre-legislative scrutiny of the draft general scheme of data-sharing and governance Bill with officials from the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform and the Department of Justice and Equality, and Mr. Dale Sunderland, deputy commissioner, and Mr. Cathal Ryan, assistant commissioner, from the Office of the Data Protection Commissioner. I welcome Mr. Barry...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Scheme of Data-Sharing and Governance Bill: Discussion (18 May 2017)

Gerry Horkan: Mr. Sunderland might like to make his opening remarks now.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Scheme of Data-Sharing and Governance Bill: Discussion (18 May 2017)

Gerry Horkan: I thank Mr. Carroll. I call Deputy Sherlock.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Scheme of Data-Sharing and Governance Bill: Discussion (18 May 2017)

Gerry Horkan: I have a few points myself. This is quite technical and not necessarily information that is going to hit the front page of any newspaper, initially at least. Could the witness outline a real-life situation that this particular legislation is going to change and compare what is happening now with what will happen if and when this legislation is passed, or is the legislation just a general...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Scheme of Data-Sharing and Governance Bill: Discussion (18 May 2017)

Gerry Horkan: It only relates to the public sector. Is that correct? Is that the public sector in its broadest meaning or more narrow meaning? Does that include Irish Water, the ESB and other 100% State-owned entities? The ESB is obviously a commercial semi-State company. We are not sure exactly what Irish Water is at the moment, but it is probably neither one nor the other. Is it in or out of this?...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Scheme of Data-Sharing and Governance Bill: Discussion (18 May 2017)

Gerry Horkan: They cannot use the provisions of the Bill.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Scheme of Data-Sharing and Governance Bill: Discussion (18 May 2017)

Gerry Horkan: So making sure that everyone whose car is taxed also has car insurance and vice versais not affected by this Bill, but there is other legislation covering those kinds of schemes in the first place. In terms of access to data, there is FOI on one side and data protection on the other. In terms of data, we are all concerned about garbage in, garbage out. At the moment, almost a million random...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Scheme of Data-Sharing and Governance Bill: Discussion (18 May 2017)

Gerry Horkan: This may be a question for the Data Protection Commissioner or perhaps for Mr. Lowry. I am not sure. It is regarding audit trails and the track being kept of what everyone is looking at and inputting. Is that all included in the legislation? It emerged when somebody won €120 million or whatever it was in the EuroMillions lotto that approximately 70 people in the Revenue...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Scheme of Data-Sharing and Governance Bill: Discussion (18 May 2017)

Gerry Horkan: Do they still need to go to individual Departments? It is data-sharing but is there a suggestion that there will be a central database to which the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport will have access to parts and the Department of Health to other parts, for example? Are we still talking about 20 different databases with my address in each? If one is updated, are those responsible...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Scheme of Data-Sharing and Governance Bill: Discussion (18 May 2017)

Gerry Horkan: Mr. Sunderland was talking about the obligations of data controllers and organisations that hold data. Most of us realise these regulations exist. Is it required that every single user of data on a system must have his or her own audit trail based on what he or she looks at? One hears of passwords being shared and of people being able to access data on general terminals. Is everybody...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Scheme of Data-Sharing and Governance Bill: Discussion (18 May 2017)

Gerry Horkan: Is the witness satisfied that this is the case in the bulk of the public sector or are there still significant flaws whereby people do not have to use an individual identifier to gain access to systems or no record is being kept of the updates made by individuals on people's files? Is there much work still to be done or are we there or thereabouts? Clearly, if nobody can tell us where these...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Scheme of Data-Sharing and Governance Bill: Discussion (18 May 2017)

Gerry Horkan: Sorry to intervene, but the witness was able to find out who in the Department had been doing it-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Scheme of Data-Sharing and Governance Bill: Discussion (18 May 2017)

Gerry Horkan: -----based on the private investigator's information. It had to come from somebody and the Office of the Data Commissioner could look at that person's file and see who had accessed it inappropriately.

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