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Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Paradise Papers (Resumed): Allied Irish Banks (14 Dec 2017)

Paul Murphy: Can Mr. Byrne set out the rationale for the Isle of Man and Jersey entities not wanting data about their customers on file in the Republic of Ireland?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Paradise Papers (Resumed): Allied Irish Banks (14 Dec 2017)

Paul Murphy: Does Mr. Byrne not believe that they did not want the information in the Republic of Ireland because there it would be easier for the Revenue Commissioners to access?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Paradise Papers (Resumed): Allied Irish Banks (14 Dec 2017)

Paul Murphy: As the data were retained in the Isle of Man and Jersey, the Revenue Commissioners were not able to access it.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Paradise Papers (Resumed): Allied Irish Banks (14 Dec 2017)

Paul Murphy: Sure, but if the data were sitting in Germany, the Revenue Commissioners could go to court in Germany and seek access to them. They could get a court order in Germany to access them.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Paradise Papers (Resumed): Allied Irish Banks (14 Dec 2017)

Paul Murphy: I am just citing Germany as an example. There are other countries where it might be easier-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Paradise Papers (Resumed): Allied Irish Banks (14 Dec 2017)

Paul Murphy: The data that were held in the Isle of Man and Jersey never found their way to the Revenue Commissioners, despite the fact that they may have been interesting to the Revenue Commissioners.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Paradise Papers (Resumed): Allied Irish Banks (14 Dec 2017)

Paul Murphy: Mr. Byrne, when rationalising why this happens, seems to me to be at pains and prepared to go to substantial lengths to avoid the conclusion that it may have happened because those entities did not want the Revenue Commissioners to get the data which, had they sat in the Republic of Ireland, would be easier for the Revenue to access. Surely that is the most obvious explanation for the...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Paradise Papers (Resumed): Allied Irish Banks (14 Dec 2017)

Paul Murphy: AIB introduced a centralised transaction processing and data storage capability in the Republic in 2006, at which point the subsidiaries in the Isle of Man or Jersey were not being wound down. They were still operating and presumably had billions of deposits at that stage.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Paradise Papers (Resumed): Allied Irish Banks (14 Dec 2017)

Paul Murphy: The answer was that it related to the wind down of operations but that is not true because the question related to 2006.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Paradise Papers (Resumed): Allied Irish Banks (14 Dec 2017)

Paul Murphy: The article also states:Up to the time the decision was made to close it in 2012, AIB Offshore saw itself playing a crucial role in the AIB group by getting business from 'high net worth individuals', the vast bulk of whom would be doing business with the bank for 'tax planning' reasons, the documents show. The resultant deposits could then be used by the group. Is that an accurate...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Paradise Papers (Resumed): Allied Irish Banks (14 Dec 2017)

Paul Murphy: Up to the time when the decision was made to close AIB Offshore in 2012.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Paradise Papers (Resumed): Allied Irish Banks (14 Dec 2017)

Paul Murphy: Mr. Byrne does not think that the majority of those who had offshore accounts with AIB were doing so for tax planning reasons.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Paradise Papers (Resumed): Allied Irish Banks (14 Dec 2017)

Paul Murphy: Does he have an opinion on it? He has expressed opinions on other matters.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Paradise Papers (Resumed): Allied Irish Banks (14 Dec 2017)

Paul Murphy: It seems that Mr. Byrne is willing to state opinions and come up with rationales when they do not point to what is staring everybody in the face, which is that these operations were to facilitate at least tax avoidance and probably tax evasion in terms of pre-1998 clients.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Paradise Papers (Resumed): Allied Irish Banks (14 Dec 2017)

Paul Murphy: A letter was sent on 15 September 2015 by Appleby to AIB for the attention of Andrew Smith, head of AIB group legal services. It comes in the context of Mr. Byrne being in AIB and he would have a certain responsibility for it. It states that Appleby had been instructed by AIB ISL Limited in respect of Mr. Smith's letter of 3 September 2015 in which he asked whether AIB ISL Limited would...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Paradise Papers (Resumed): Allied Irish Banks (14 Dec 2017)

Paul Murphy: I think it is the opposite. I ask Mr. Byrne to explain his statement. I asked him about this matter and he has repeatedly stated that this statement in the article was inaccurate: "Leaked files from the Isle of Man (IOM) offices of offshore law firm Appleby reveal Government-owned AIB also refused to give the Revenue Commissioners access to data on its offshore customers when responding to...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Paradise Papers (Resumed): Allied Irish Banks (14 Dec 2017)

Paul Murphy: ------yet here is a letter to prove it.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Paradise Papers (Resumed): Allied Irish Banks (14 Dec 2017)

Paul Murphy: No, Ms Dooley stated that was not on foot of a High Court order nor a request by the Revenue Commissioners.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Paradise Papers (Resumed): Allied Irish Banks (14 Dec 2017)

Paul Murphy: This letter asks whether AIB Isle of Man consents to AIB reviewing customer data held in AIB's data server for documents relevant to the disclosures order made by the Irish High Court.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Paradise Papers (Resumed): Allied Irish Banks (14 Dec 2017)

Paul Murphy: No, not exactly. Mr. Byrne a moment ago stated it was nothing to do with the court order.

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