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Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance Bill 2016: Committee Stage (Resumed) (15 Nov 2016)

Eoghan Murphy: It would be €11 million.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance Bill 2016: Committee Stage (Resumed) (15 Nov 2016)

Eoghan Murphy: Yes

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance Bill 2016: Committee Stage (Resumed) (15 Nov 2016)

Eoghan Murphy: I move amendment No. 76: In page 34, to delete lines 17 to 21 and substitute the following: “not later than 8 weeks from— (I) 1 January 2017 where the day referred to in paragraph (e) predates 1 January 2017 and the company has not yet made the notification in writing to the authorised officer in the form prescribed by the Revenue Commissioners as required to be made by the...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance Bill 2016: Committee Stage (Resumed) (15 Nov 2016)

Eoghan Murphy: For clarity, is the Deputy addressing section 110 in terms of section 21?

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance Bill 2016: Committee Stage (Resumed) (15 Nov 2016)

Eoghan Murphy: The purpose of the amendments we are making, and I note further amendments will possibly be made on Report Stage because we want to ensure the language is tight enough to capture any leakage of tax out of the State, is to ensure where there are taxing rights and tax owed to the State where the transaction is based on an asset that derives its value from property that those taxes be collected....

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance Bill 2016: Committee Stage (Resumed) (15 Nov 2016)

Eoghan Murphy: I do not think it was anticipated that section 110 would be used this way. It was known by Revenue and the Department that section 110 could be used to securitise such assets, but not that it would be used in this way and that there would be such a loss of tax to the State.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance Bill 2016: Committee Stage (Resumed) (15 Nov 2016)

Eoghan Murphy: My understanding is there will be no grandfathering. If the profit has not been booked and the distribution has not been made, it will be captured in so far as the amendment is concerned.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance Bill 2016: Committee Stage (Resumed) (15 Nov 2016)

Eoghan Murphy: This is an interpretation of the language. Amendment 96, which is proposed by Deputy Donnelly, has much the same effect as the text which is already included within section 21 of the Bill but with one particular aspect it is slightly easier to meet the test than that which is already included. The test in section 21 is that the interest which may be deductible is no more than the...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance Bill 2016: Committee Stage (Resumed) (15 Nov 2016)

Eoghan Murphy: That will fall to the Revenue Commissioners in so far as they are satisfied that this is consistent with the other provisions in the Taxes Consolidation Act 1997 and would afford them the ample scope they would need to challenge a company trying to do that or trying to circumvent what we are trying to do with the legislation in so far as section 110 is concerned, if they were trying to pay...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance Bill 2016: Committee Stage (Resumed) (15 Nov 2016)

Eoghan Murphy: Revenue will not be giving advance opinions in this area and it will not be doing deals with individual companies. If the matter goes to court the court will set the rate. If Revenue had a fear that the language was not clear enough for it to impose that rate it would look for stronger language but it is satisfied that the language as drafted will not allow companies to avoid this tax.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance Bill 2016: Committee Stage (Resumed) (15 Nov 2016)

Eoghan Murphy: It will be consistent treatment of all on the assessment of Revenue.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance Bill 2016: Committee Stage (Resumed) (15 Nov 2016)

Eoghan Murphy: Revenue will not be doing deals upfront with companies. To say a deal might be done is to imply that there is not a consistent application of an assessment of what tax should be paid. It will consider what would be a reasonable commercial return based on the investment made and make an assessment based on that. It will have to take into account the different investments that have been...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance Bill 2016: Committee Stage (Resumed) (15 Nov 2016)

Eoghan Murphy: In so far as language such as "deal" is being used, this implies that special treatment is being given or secret arrangements are being made, and that is absolutely not the intention of this section. This has been identified and brought to light, publicly and correctly, and we are now moving to try and do something about it. It may just be a difficulty of language because I do not believe...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance Bill 2016: Committee Stage (Resumed) (15 Nov 2016)

Eoghan Murphy: Does the Deputy not believe that his amendment gives the similar type of latitude around the potential interpretation that might be made by the company that is trying to apply a higher rate to avoid having to pay any tax on the-----

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance Bill 2016: Committee Stage (Resumed) (15 Nov 2016)

Eoghan Murphy: To what extent does it propose to anchor the rate to a regulated commercial bank insofar as the ability is there to arrange a rate or mezzanine financing with a company?

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance Bill 2016: Committee Stage (Resumed) (15 Nov 2016)

Eoghan Murphy: A regulated commercial bank could issue a higher rate of interest if it sees it as a riskier venture, with a higher rate of return. It still requires an interpretation by Revenue as to what would be the best applicable rate to make. we do not want the kind of attitude that the Deputy fears. It is not the intention of the section. In this instance Revenue would be using the banks as their...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance Bill 2016: Committee Stage (Resumed) (15 Nov 2016)

Eoghan Murphy: The phrase itself comes from the tax Acts and is used consistently within the tax Acts. That is why that particular phrase is being used. Revenue is independent of Government and we have received advice that this would allow Revenue to work the Act as it is intended. The establishment of a reporting mechanism is being thought through, but there is a risk in that there are such a small...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance Bill 2016: Committee Stage (Resumed) (15 Nov 2016)

Eoghan Murphy: I will come back to the Deputy on that.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance Bill 2016: Committee Stage (Resumed) (15 Nov 2016)

Eoghan Murphy: The residential mortgage-backed securities and the commercial mortgage-backed securities, which the Deputy outlined, are defined in the amendments so that they are the only securitisation transactions undertaken by banks within the EU's capital requirement regulation. The use of section 110 vehicles for these transactions is simply the facilitation of the repackaging of the risk. In most...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance Bill 2016: Committee Stage (Resumed) (15 Nov 2016)

Eoghan Murphy: The originator has to be a bank though. It still needs to be permissible for a bank to securitise its loan book in this way, regardless of whether it is made up of commercial or residential mortgages. Under the capital requirements regulation, the bank retains a portion of the risk. It is difficult, therefore, to see why a section 110 vehicle would try to step into this given that it would...