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Select Committee on Health: Health (Regulation of Termination of Pregnancy) Bill 2018: Committee Stage (6 Nov 2018)

Louise O'Reilly: I move amendment No. 29:In page 7, line 7, to delete “for a term not exceeding 14 years” and substitute “for a term proportionate to the scale of the offence”.

Select Committee on Health: Health (Regulation of Termination of Pregnancy) Bill 2018: Committee Stage (6 Nov 2018)

Louise O'Reilly: I support the idea of a review but I do not support the view that we should wait five years for it. It should be conducted either in line with the views of or in conjunction with the members of the health committee at the time, whoever they may be. The Minister has acknowledged that five years might be little long. There is a proposal for two years. We could settle on two and a half years.

Select Committee on Health: Health (Regulation of Termination of Pregnancy) Bill 2018: Committee Stage (6 Nov 2018)

Louise O'Reilly: If we were to settle on three, however, we would have to start the collection of data and have the work under way so the actual review would take place at that stage, and not talk about the parameters for a review. There is a bit of scope in this regard but there should most definitely be a review. It has to be based on the collection of data, and the data collected have to be more...

Select Committee on Health: Health (Regulation of Termination of Pregnancy) Bill 2018: Committee Stage (6 Nov 2018)

Louise O'Reilly: I had requested that the collection of data would start in advance of that period so that we are ready to review the actual operation. If we commence the job of collecting the data in three years' time, then it could actually be four years or possible five years. The collection of necessary data would start one year before that, if required.

Select Committee on Health: Health (Regulation of Termination of Pregnancy) Bill 2018: Committee Stage (6 Nov 2018)

Louise O'Reilly: I am simply saying that it is better not to wait three years before we start collecting data and analysing it.

Select Committee on Health: Health (Regulation of Termination of Pregnancy) Bill 2018: Committee Stage (6 Nov 2018)

Louise O'Reilly: I have spoken to doctors and I do not think they are looking for legislation, but that they do want it defined. Perhaps the ones I am talking to are not the same as to ones to whom the Minister is speaking and perhaps we should swap over. It makes more sense for the definition to be in the guidelines rather than in legislation. The wording should be changed to say "will be provided for in...

Select Committee on Health: Health (Regulation of Termination of Pregnancy) Bill 2018: Committee Stage (6 Nov 2018)

Louise O'Reilly: I had not intended to speak on this either. It strikes me that the extraordinary measures referred to are already done. I accept the point made about going above and beyond where there is no hope. The Minister wants to remove the burden from doctors but this does not do that. I understand the intention. It would be very good if we could do it. They perform extraordinary measures. There...

Select Committee on Health: Health (Regulation of Termination of Pregnancy) Bill 2018: Committee Stage (6 Nov 2018)

Louise O'Reilly: We have been here all day and we will be here longer. The intention is to remove the burden from doctors and this does not do that. We need to look at it again rather than vote on it, although I am happy to vote if that is what people want. We are all in agreement that we want to give certainty to doctors but we are not in agreement that this does it.

Select Committee on Health: Health (Regulation of Termination of Pregnancy) Bill 2018: Committee Stage (6 Nov 2018)

Louise O'Reilly: Could we take a ten-minute break?

Select Committee on Health: Health (Regulation of Termination of Pregnancy) Bill 2018: Committee Stage (6 Nov 2018)

Louise O'Reilly: The purpose of the amendment tabled by myself, Deputy Donnelly and others, is to put the woman, the pregnant person, into the legislation, to ensure that she is listened to. All of the amendments in this group are saying more or less the same thing. To echo what Deputy O'Connell said, if the Minister could just agree to the amendments we would all get home earlier tonight.

Select Committee on Health: Health (Regulation of Termination of Pregnancy) Bill 2018: Committee Stage (6 Nov 2018)

Louise O'Reilly: I will conclude on this. Is Minister going to suggest the amendments on the basis of us all being in agreement?

Select Committee on Health: Health (Regulation of Termination of Pregnancy) Bill 2018: Committee Stage (6 Nov 2018)

Louise O'Reilly: If it does cover it.

Select Committee on Health: Health (Regulation of Termination of Pregnancy) Bill 2018: Committee Stage (6 Nov 2018)

Louise O'Reilly: We are not going to die in a ditch with regard to the wording but the intention is clear.

Select Committee on Health: Health (Regulation of Termination of Pregnancy) Bill 2018: Committee Stage (6 Nov 2018)

Louise O'Reilly: I move amendment No. 44:In page 9, line 11, after “woman” to insert “and ascertained her views”. On the basis of the massive hostage to fortune just given by Deputy O'Connell, I will withdraw the amendment.

Select Committee on Health: Health (Regulation of Termination of Pregnancy) Bill 2018: Committee Stage (6 Nov 2018)

Louise O'Reilly: I move amendment No. 46:In page 9, line 13, to delete “of serious harm”. There was enough discussion about this at the eighth amendment committee and many of the medical professionals who gave evidence were clear that it is not possible to grade risk in this way. They told the committee that it is difficult for them to respond medically to the words like "serious". For that...

Select Committee on Health: Health (Regulation of Termination of Pregnancy) Bill 2018: Committee Stage (6 Nov 2018)

Louise O'Reilly: Amendment No. 53 deals with the same thing. On the basis of legal advice we obtained - Deputy Kelly got the same advice - "mitigate" is the preferred word. If there is an argument against that, we will hear it, but there is clearly a conflict because the advice that we are getting contradicts what is in the legislation.

Select Committee on Health: Health (Regulation of Termination of Pregnancy) Bill 2018: Committee Stage (6 Nov 2018)

Louise O'Reilly: The Minister is saying he received that correspondence.

Select Committee on Health: Health (Regulation of Termination of Pregnancy) Bill 2018: Committee Stage (6 Nov 2018)

Louise O'Reilly: We will not be supporting the amendment. I respect the fact that Deputy Donnelly has tabled it, although he himself does not support it. Perhaps the conversation needs to be had with those who do support it. I am sorry to borrow its language, but I do not think it is a necessary amendment. The use of the word "appropriate" is not appropriate in these circumstances. I do not see the need...

Select Committee on Health: Health (Regulation of Termination of Pregnancy) Bill 2018: Committee Stage (6 Nov 2018)

Louise O'Reilly: I move amendment No. 55.In page 9, to delete lines 23 to 28. On the basis that we have had extensive discussions about the person who should be at the centre of this, I think the Minister has heard what we have to say about all of these amendments. I understand it is late, but we reserve the right to resubmit the amendment on Report Stage.

Select Committee on Health: Health (Regulation of Termination of Pregnancy) Bill 2018: Committee Stage (6 Nov 2018)

Louise O'Reilly: Am I correct in hearing that the Minister will accept the arguments relating to the practical challenges posed by this? I do not want to put words in his mouth; we are all tired. Will he come back with an amendment on Report Stage that will attempt to encompass the points we raised, which have been raised by doctors not just in correspondence with us but publicly too, relating to the...

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