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Ceisteanna - Questions - Ceisteanna ar Sonraíodh Uain Dóibh - Priority Questions: National Children's Hospital Expenditure (7 Feb 2019)

Jonathan O'Brien: We are led to believe that the Minister, Deputy Harris, was not aware of the costs in September, despite the Secretary General and an assistant secretary knowing that the figure was €391 million. I accept that is a capital cost but surely it is a pretty important figure to feed into the budgetary process. While the budget deals with current expenditure, there were also massive...

Ceisteanna - Questions - Ceisteanna ar Sonraíodh Uain Dóibh - Priority Questions: National Children's Hospital Expenditure (7 Feb 2019)

Jonathan O'Brien: 2. To ask the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform when his attention was drawn to the cost overruns in the national children’s hospital; when he raised concerns with the Department of Health on the robustness of internal cost controls; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [6137/19]

Written Answers — Department of Public Expenditure and Reform: Public Private Partnerships (7 Feb 2019)

Jonathan O'Brien: 22. To ask the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform the expected role public private partnerships will play in capital projects under the National Development Plan 2018 to 2027; and if projects will be designed and tendered on that basis. [5956/19]

Written Answers — Department of Public Expenditure and Reform: Capital Expenditure Programme (7 Feb 2019)

Jonathan O'Brien: 42. To ask the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform the capital projects to be delayed or deferred in each of the years 2019 to 2022 as a result of the cost overruns in the National Children’s Hospital; when the details of these deferrals will be published; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [5953/19]

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
(6 Feb 2019)

Jonathan O'Brien: There are two points on which I want to touch. I want to go back to the issue of timing because there are so many dates and issues that people are becoming confused. I know that I certainly am. Therefore, I want to make sure we are all on the same page. Mr. Woods said he first became aware of the overrun in September 2018. Is that correct?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
(6 Feb 2019)

Jonathan O'Brien: I am not interested in when the paper came to the board; I am interested in knowing when Mr. Woods first became aware of the overruns.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
(6 Feb 2019)

Jonathan O'Brien: That totally contradicts what we were told at the meeting of the Committee of Public Accounts last Thursday. We were told that the board had first become aware of the overrun in June 2018. Is Mr. Woods saying that is not correct?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
(6 Feb 2019)

Jonathan O'Brien: At the meeting of the Committee of Public Accounts the answers were very specific. We were told that the overrun was €40 million in June, €200 million in August and €450 million in November.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
(6 Feb 2019)

Jonathan O'Brien: Let us cut out the confusion about when reports were received and all of that. When, as a board member, did Mr. Woods first become aware that there was an overrun on the project?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
(6 Feb 2019)

Jonathan O'Brien: It was in 2017.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
(6 Feb 2019)

Jonathan O'Brien: That issue was resolved in terms of some savings having been achieved. I am counting the overrun of €60 million as a separate issue from-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
(6 Feb 2019)

Jonathan O'Brien: Mr. Breslin was at the meeting of the Committee of Public Accounts. Does he recollect from that meeting that the board became aware of it in June 2018?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
(6 Feb 2019)

Jonathan O'Brien: Surely we do not need to spend €450,000 to find out when people became aware of something. We have the individuals in the room here.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
(6 Feb 2019)

Jonathan O'Brien: That is fair enough, but I cannot ask the chairman of the development board because he has resigned. I believe he was the person who said at the meeting of the Committee of Public Accounts-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
(6 Feb 2019)

Jonathan O'Brien: And the project director. We will get him back before the Committee of Public Accounts also. It was in June 2018 that those concerned first became aware of the issue. The actual wording was that we were on budget up to that point. Leaving aside the 2017 figure, we were told that we were on budget up until then. There had been no indication that there was an issue, but we are now hearing...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
(6 Feb 2019)

Jonathan O'Brien: I have one more question. The Chairman can note that I have not got answers to the questions I have asked. On the original tenders, is Mr. Breslin aware of the EU procurement guidelines on abnormally low tenders?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
(6 Feb 2019)

Jonathan O'Brien: Mr. Breslin said earlier - I was watching on the monitor - that had he not gone with the lowest bidder, he could have ended up in the Four Courts.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
(6 Feb 2019)

Jonathan O'Brien: Under EU procurement law, there are guidelines on how abnormally low tenders should be dealt with by the contracting authority. The guidelines state abnormally low tenders can be questioned. Was there any questioning of the tender price, given that it was €131 million below the next lowest price?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
(6 Feb 2019)

Jonathan O'Brien: The development board was in charge of the procurement process.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
(6 Feb 2019)

Jonathan O'Brien: I have a question for Mr. Woods. Was there any questioning of the bid from BAM? I ask that given how low it was and the EU procurement guidelines in place. Did anyone question that? I refer in particular to Mr. Quinn, who is the Government head of procurement. Did he not point out that the EU guidelines state that the bid could be questioned?

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