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Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements 2016: Higher Education Authority, University College Cork and Cork Institute of Technology (24 May 2018)

Alan Kelly: I think Mr. Collins needs to check that this is within procurement guidelines. This is the last question on the IMI. I presume that no student fees or payments from the State are being used in any way to pay back Ulster Bank for the purchase of IMI properties, or to pay the release charges on IMI properties to AIB?

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements 2016: Higher Education Authority, University College Cork and Cork Institute of Technology (24 May 2018)

Alan Kelly: The witness is just saying no.

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements 2016: Higher Education Authority, University College Cork and Cork Institute of Technology (24 May 2018)

Alan Kelly: Fine. Mr. Collins appreciates the time pressure. I will now address the Cork Institute of Technology, CIT. The pension paid by the student services company is obviously used by those who work there. Are there any people outside of that who have any benefit from the pension scheme? Is there anyone else in the college, on the board or anyone whatsoever outside of those directly involved...

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements 2016: Higher Education Authority, University College Cork and Cork Institute of Technology (24 May 2018)

Alan Kelly: Dr. O'Connor might check it and come back.

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements 2016: Higher Education Authority, University College Cork and Cork Institute of Technology (24 May 2018)

Alan Kelly: I have a really puzzling query here about the Munster Technological University. The query concerns costs. The HEA might want to have a look at this. A letter was written to the Committee for Public Accounts on 23 March 2018. It stated that the costs of the merger to date were a total of €571,803. Yet a letter to the committee dated 27 May stated that the costs were...

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements 2016: Higher Education Authority, University College Cork and Cork Institute of Technology (24 May 2018)

Alan Kelly: I looked at that. I do not think that adds up.

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements 2016: Higher Education Authority, University College Cork and Cork Institute of Technology (24 May 2018)

Alan Kelly: I checked that. I do not think those figures add up.

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements 2016: Higher Education Authority, University College Cork and Cork Institute of Technology (24 May 2018)

Alan Kelly: Can Mr. Conlon do so pretty quickly? It seems hilarious that two letters were written to the committee three years apart, indicating that the costs were over €752,000 three years ago, and are now €571,000. Two years have passed and the costs have decreased. Apples with apples, oranges with oranges is the argument. However, I have checked that out, and even allowing for that...

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements 2016: Higher Education Authority, University College Cork and Cork Institute of Technology (24 May 2018)

Alan Kelly: I know. I have added those in. We have public information on those. They still do not add up. I would like this information presented in a table. The witnesses might come back to us next week. Regarding the Department, obviously its officials have great respect for the HEA and all of that. They accept that the HEA has a significant role to play. I take that as given. I wish to...

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements 2016: Higher Education Authority, University College Cork and Cork Institute of Technology (24 May 2018)

Alan Kelly: Can Mr. Beausang explain to me what the Department did when it found out about these minutes and what the HEA board had recommended?

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements 2016: Higher Education Authority, University College Cork and Cork Institute of Technology (24 May 2018)

Alan Kelly: Very well, perhaps the next witness can answer.

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements 2016: Higher Education Authority, University College Cork and Cork Institute of Technology (24 May 2018)

Alan Kelly: We have two people here who have no standing whatsoever to answer questions.

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements 2016: Higher Education Authority, University College Cork and Cork Institute of Technology (24 May 2018)

Alan Kelly: Answer the question then.

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements 2016: Higher Education Authority, University College Cork and Cork Institute of Technology (24 May 2018)

Alan Kelly: Excuse me. Mr. Beausang is here to represent the Department. He is here to answer questions. With all due respect, he should not be here if he is not capable of answering the questions or does not have the capacity to do so. His Secretary General or somebody else should be here. With all due respect, it is actually disingenuous to the Committee of Public Accounts for the Department to...

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements 2016: Higher Education Authority, University College Cork and Cork Institute of Technology (24 May 2018)

Alan Kelly: Effectively, we may note that the Department is incapable of answering the question.

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements 2016: Higher Education Authority, University College Cork and Cork Institute of Technology (24 May 2018)

Alan Kelly: No, I do not want a written answer. The point of public hearings is that the witnesses are asked questions in order to provide answers in public, in camera, for the people outside watching. It is an indictment of the Department of Education and Skills that it did not have the capacity to send anybody here to answer questions, with full knowledge of the fact that these issues have been aired...

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements 2016: Higher Education Authority, University College Cork and Cork Institute of Technology (24 May 2018)

Alan Kelly: Fine. I think I have outlined the point. I have another question for CIT. A company called KONE provides services and courses in CIT. Are any former CIT employees directors of this company, or anyone who is formerly on the management team a director of this company? Can the witnesses come back to us in writing on that? Are any former employees or members of the management team directors...

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements 2016: Higher Education Authority, University College Cork and Cork Institute of Technology (24 May 2018)

Alan Kelly: This my last point. Obviously, when the draft policy was in place, which Deputy MacSharry examined in detail, it was never used for any cases. That is because there were no disclosures before 2018, so there were no disclosures during the period of the draft policy. Is that right?

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements 2016: Higher Education Authority, University College Cork and Cork Institute of Technology (24 May 2018)

Alan Kelly: There were no disclosures when there was a draft policy, there was no agreement on a disclosure when there was a draft policy, and there were no disclosures when there was a policy in place. We have agreed that. Is that correct?

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements 2016: Higher Education Authority, University College Cork and Cork Institute of Technology (24 May 2018)

Alan Kelly: Apologies. I am referring to pre-2018 all the time. For clarity, there were no disclosures when there was a draft policy in place or a full policy in place, pre-2018 and so on. I respectfully ask the Department, through the Higher Education Authority, HEA, or whatever process, to investigate this matter. I had not intended to ask this question at all, but based on the evidence heard...