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Public Accounts Committee: 2019 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 – Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Chapter 3 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Chapter 4 - Accounting for Capital Assets
Chapter 5 - Accounting for Allied Services
(22 Oct 2020)

Verona Murphy: No. It is the underestimating of the appropriations-in-aid.

Public Accounts Committee: 2019 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 – Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Chapter 3 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Chapter 4 - Accounting for Capital Assets
Chapter 5 - Accounting for Allied Services
(22 Oct 2020)

Verona Murphy: No. It is the underestimating of the appropriations-in-aid in relation to the single public service pension scheme. It was underestimated by €94 million in 2019 and by €92.5 million.

Public Accounts Committee: 2019 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 – Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Chapter 3 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Chapter 4 - Accounting for Capital Assets
Chapter 5 - Accounting for Allied Services
(22 Oct 2020)

Verona Murphy: I apologise for interrupting but my time is limited. It is an ongoing challenge but how does the Department propose to deal with it?

Public Accounts Committee: 2019 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 – Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Chapter 3 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Chapter 4 - Accounting for Capital Assets
Chapter 5 - Accounting for Allied Services
(22 Oct 2020)

Verona Murphy: I accept that Mr. Watt said the Department does not know what to do about it. However, what form did the review take?

Public Accounts Committee: 2019 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 – Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Chapter 3 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Chapter 4 - Accounting for Capital Assets
Chapter 5 - Accounting for Allied Services
(22 Oct 2020)

Verona Murphy: Is there any model anywhere that looks better?

Public Accounts Committee: 2019 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 – Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Chapter 3 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Chapter 4 - Accounting for Capital Assets
Chapter 5 - Accounting for Allied Services
(22 Oct 2020)

Verona Murphy: I will put my question to Mr. Pender. From the perspective of actuarially assessing it, the sum of €94 million appears to be a big gap.

Public Accounts Committee: 2019 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 – Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Chapter 3 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Chapter 4 - Accounting for Capital Assets
Chapter 5 - Accounting for Allied Services
(22 Oct 2020)

Verona Murphy: It was 2013 so it is almost ten years old.

Public Accounts Committee: 2019 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 – Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Chapter 3 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Chapter 4 - Accounting for Capital Assets
Chapter 5 - Accounting for Allied Services
(22 Oct 2020)

Verona Murphy: Okay. There does not appear to be an answer to it.

Public Accounts Committee: 2019 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 – Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Chapter 3 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Chapter 4 - Accounting for Capital Assets
Chapter 5 - Accounting for Allied Services
(22 Oct 2020)

Verona Murphy: According to the figures I have, it was underestimated by €94 million.

Public Accounts Committee: 2019 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 – Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Chapter 3 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Chapter 4 - Accounting for Capital Assets
Chapter 5 - Accounting for Allied Services
(22 Oct 2020)

Verona Murphy: Yes, €92.5 million were due.

Public Accounts Committee: 2019 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 – Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Chapter 3 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Chapter 4 - Accounting for Capital Assets
Chapter 5 - Accounting for Allied Services
(22 Oct 2020)

Verona Murphy: The Exchequer picks up the tab because it was not paid by the employers. Is that correct?

Public Accounts Committee: 2019 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 – Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Chapter 3 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Chapter 4 - Accounting for Capital Assets
Chapter 5 - Accounting for Allied Services
(22 Oct 2020)

Verona Murphy: It appears that the Exchequer has picked up the tab for certain agencies.

Public Accounts Committee: 2019 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 – Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Chapter 3 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Chapter 4 - Accounting for Capital Assets
Chapter 5 - Accounting for Allied Services
(22 Oct 2020)

Verona Murphy: That relates to those bodies.

Public Accounts Committee: 2019 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 – Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Chapter 3 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Chapter 4 - Accounting for Capital Assets
Chapter 5 - Accounting for Allied Services
(22 Oct 2020)

Verona Murphy: I have a quick question for Mr. Watt. I understand we are discussing the accounts, but Mr. Watt referred to Covid and all the other implications. I wonder about our debt and deficit sustainability. There are estimates of €20 billion for this year and next year, which will drive up the national debt to more than €250 billion. The GNI has obviously gone up through the roof....

Public Accounts Committee: 2019 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 – Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Chapter 3 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Chapter 4 - Accounting for Capital Assets
Chapter 5 - Accounting for Allied Services
(22 Oct 2020)

Verona Murphy: Do we have a debt ceiling? I am running out of time.

Public Accounts Committee: 2019 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 – Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Chapter 3 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Chapter 4 - Accounting for Capital Assets
Chapter 5 - Accounting for Allied Services
(22 Oct 2020)

Verona Murphy: Given that we expect an €11 billion deficit to occur as a result of this lockdown, I am very concerned.

Public Accounts Committee: 2019 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 – Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Chapter 3 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Chapter 4 - Accounting for Capital Assets
Chapter 5 - Accounting for Allied Services
(22 Oct 2020)

Verona Murphy: I am talking about the loss from the small and medium enterprises, SMEs.

Public Accounts Committee: 2019 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 – Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Chapter 3 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Chapter 4 - Accounting for Capital Assets
Chapter 5 - Accounting for Allied Services
(22 Oct 2020)

Verona Murphy: To go back to pensions, given that there does not appear to be a strategy to cope with the measure, could Mr. Watt put something together, including a timeframe, for dealing with this? Could it be presented to this committee in the coming weeks?

Public Accounts Committee: 2019 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 – Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Chapter 3 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Chapter 4 - Accounting for Capital Assets
Chapter 5 - Accounting for Allied Services
(22 Oct 2020)

Verona Murphy: Yes.

Public Accounts Committee: 2019 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 – Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Chapter 3 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Chapter 4 - Accounting for Capital Assets
Chapter 5 - Accounting for Allied Services
(22 Oct 2020)

Verona Murphy: Mr. Watt does not need to answer. Could he just commit to it?

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