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Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriations Account (Resumed)
Vote 24 - Justice and Equality (Resumed)
Chapter 6 - Procurement and Management of Contracts for Direct Provision (Resumed)
(11 May 2017)

Mary Lou McDonald: I take that as a diplomatic "Yes". How is it that the Commissioner did not, in accordance with her obligations under section 41, inform the Secretary General of these matters? She tells us that she came to understand the full gravity of things in July 2015. Mr. Waters was in situ at that stage-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriations Account (Resumed)
Vote 24 - Justice and Equality (Resumed)
Chapter 6 - Procurement and Management of Contracts for Direct Provision (Resumed)
(11 May 2017)

Mary Lou McDonald: In July 2015 Mr. Waters was in charge of the Department. The Commissioner tells us that at that point that she discovered the full, terrible vista of Templemore, and yet Mr. Waters was not informed, as per section 41 of the legislation.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriations Account (Resumed)
Vote 24 - Justice and Equality (Resumed)
Chapter 6 - Procurement and Management of Contracts for Direct Provision (Resumed)
(11 May 2017)

Mary Lou McDonald: I want Mr. Waters to stay in his own shoes. He is the Secretary General of the Department of Justice and Equality. He is therefore in charge. He carries statutory duties and obligations, as does the Commissioner. This is not a pick and mix situation, where one can decide to act or not act. The Commissioner had an obligation to inform Mr. Waters of these matters under section 41 of the...

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriations Account (Resumed)
Vote 24 - Justice and Equality (Resumed)
Chapter 6 - Procurement and Management of Contracts for Direct Provision (Resumed)
(11 May 2017)

Mary Lou McDonald: Does the witness accept that the Commissioner, as a matter of law, has a legal responsibility and obligation to inform the Secretary General and the Minister in circumstances where there is jeopardy to the reputation of An Garda Síochána?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriations Account (Resumed)
Vote 24 - Justice and Equality (Resumed)
Chapter 6 - Procurement and Management of Contracts for Direct Provision (Resumed)
(11 May 2017)

Mary Lou McDonald: The law is clear. Does the witness also accept that it is clear that the Commissioner did not exercise or abide by that obligation because she did not inform him?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriations Account (Resumed)
Vote 24 - Justice and Equality (Resumed)
Chapter 6 - Procurement and Management of Contracts for Direct Provision (Resumed)
(11 May 2017)

Mary Lou McDonald: Why can the witness not make that assumption?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriations Account (Resumed)
Vote 24 - Justice and Equality (Resumed)
Chapter 6 - Procurement and Management of Contracts for Direct Provision (Resumed)
(11 May 2017)

Mary Lou McDonald: The witness has read the audit report and has presumably followed developments in this because the audit report landed on his desk. He does not regard those issues as being of such seriousness that they would have merited his being informed under section 41 of the Act.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriations Account (Resumed)
Vote 24 - Justice and Equality (Resumed)
Chapter 6 - Procurement and Management of Contracts for Direct Provision (Resumed)
(11 May 2017)

Mary Lou McDonald: She was informed and briefed in July 2015. We know that. When does Mr. Waters believe that the Garda Commissioner received the audit report?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriations Account (Resumed)
Vote 24 - Justice and Equality (Resumed)
Chapter 6 - Procurement and Management of Contracts for Direct Provision (Resumed)
(11 May 2017)

Mary Lou McDonald: Has the witness discussed this with the Commissioner? Did he raise it with her at any stage and ask her what was going on or tell her that he was not informed and that he should have been informed?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriations Account (Resumed)
Vote 24 - Justice and Equality (Resumed)
Chapter 6 - Procurement and Management of Contracts for Direct Provision (Resumed)
(11 May 2017)

Mary Lou McDonald: What conversations has the witness had with the Commissioner on these matters?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriations Account (Resumed)
Vote 24 - Justice and Equality (Resumed)
Chapter 6 - Procurement and Management of Contracts for Direct Provision (Resumed)
(11 May 2017)

Mary Lou McDonald: The witness has no specific recollection. How often would he be in contact with the Commissioner in any given week?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriations Account (Resumed)
Vote 24 - Justice and Equality (Resumed)
Chapter 6 - Procurement and Management of Contracts for Direct Provision (Resumed)
(11 May 2017)

Mary Lou McDonald: There is regular contact?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriations Account (Resumed)
Vote 24 - Justice and Equality (Resumed)
Chapter 6 - Procurement and Management of Contracts for Direct Provision (Resumed)
(11 May 2017)

Mary Lou McDonald: Yet he has no specific recollection of any reference to this.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriations Account (Resumed)
Vote 24 - Justice and Equality (Resumed)
Chapter 6 - Procurement and Management of Contracts for Direct Provision (Resumed)
(11 May 2017)

Mary Lou McDonald: Has there been no discussion with the Commissioner in recent days or weeks?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriations Account (Resumed)
Vote 24 - Justice and Equality (Resumed)
Chapter 6 - Procurement and Management of Contracts for Direct Provision (Resumed)
(11 May 2017)

Mary Lou McDonald: Does Mr. Waters think that his job in this committee is to protect the Commissioner or anybody else?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriations Account (Resumed)
Vote 24 - Justice and Equality (Resumed)
Chapter 6 - Procurement and Management of Contracts for Direct Provision (Resumed)
(11 May 2017)

Mary Lou McDonald: Was the witness being fully frank with us when he told us that he has not had a conversation with the Commissioner on these matters around Templemore?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriations Account (Resumed)
Vote 24 - Justice and Equality (Resumed)
Chapter 6 - Procurement and Management of Contracts for Direct Provision (Resumed)
(11 May 2017)

Mary Lou McDonald: There has been no discussion on any of the irregularities with the Commissioner? She has called them financial irregularities.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriations Account (Resumed)
Vote 24 - Justice and Equality (Resumed)
Chapter 6 - Procurement and Management of Contracts for Direct Provision (Resumed)
(11 May 2017)

Mary Lou McDonald: It is extraordinary.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriations Account (Resumed)
Vote 24 - Justice and Equality (Resumed)
Chapter 6 - Procurement and Management of Contracts for Direct Provision (Resumed)
(11 May 2017)

Mary Lou McDonald: The Garda Commissioner did not inform Mr. Waters as per the legislation. He has not had a conversation with her. This is extraordinary. Has he spoken to the Tánaiste directly on the matters of the audit and the irregularities in Templemore?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriations Account (Resumed)
Vote 24 - Justice and Equality (Resumed)
Chapter 6 - Procurement and Management of Contracts for Direct Provision (Resumed)
(11 May 2017)

Mary Lou McDonald: In the context of the internal audit function with An Garda Síochána, what is the relationship between the internal audit unit and the Department? Who is the go-to person for the head of internal audit or is there a bridging mechanism-----

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