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Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 103 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Remuneration of certain senior staff in the University of Limerick and Institute of Technology Sligo (24 Jan 2019)

Seán Fleming: That is good. In other words, if PCC is funding that pension issue that was mentioned it will not be coming through the backdoor from the universities.

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 103 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Remuneration of certain senior staff in the University of Limerick and Institute of Technology Sligo (24 Jan 2019)

Seán Fleming: That is important. Just talk to me about the two people referred to, in the Comptroller and Auditor General's report, as AZ and BY, who got the consultancy contract. The first thing that I thought of when I heard about a consultancy contract was whether that contract for consultancy services was tendered publicly?

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 103 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Remuneration of certain senior staff in the University of Limerick and Institute of Technology Sligo (24 Jan 2019)

Seán Fleming: Yes, the follow-on contracts.

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 103 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Remuneration of certain senior staff in the University of Limerick and Institute of Technology Sligo (24 Jan 2019)

Seán Fleming: We know that they are just an arrangement. Not only did the Comptroller and Auditor General find a major problem that they were getting these payments, we now have a situation where it never went through procurement. If they were bona fide consultancy contracts, if one was hiring a consultant - and we have just heard about Deloitte, Clarion or the different companies that have been...

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 103 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Remuneration of certain senior staff in the University of Limerick and Institute of Technology Sligo (24 Jan 2019)

Seán Fleming: It was not an open tender, and there are issues about the contract, including whether it was signed and concerns about the specification of it. When do payments stop after those contracts?

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 103 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Remuneration of certain senior staff in the University of Limerick and Institute of Technology Sligo (24 Jan 2019)

Seán Fleming: They last for approximately three years.

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 103 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Remuneration of certain senior staff in the University of Limerick and Institute of Technology Sligo (24 Jan 2019)

Seán Fleming: Would it be accurate to describe them as "sham" contracts? We have heard about sham marriages, and this seems to me to be something similar. These were not consultancy contracts but was a made up job to ensure that a check would be paid. It sounds more and more like a sham marriage.

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 103 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Remuneration of certain senior staff in the University of Limerick and Institute of Technology Sligo (24 Jan 2019)

Seán Fleming: We have not delved into this aspect of it. There was no procurement or no real value added to the organisation that Professor Fitzgerald can stand over, and it was a made up job when someone is going out the door to top up his pension. Professor Fitzgerald might not like my words but he will understand the substance what I mean. It seems to have been a sham.

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 103 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Remuneration of certain senior staff in the University of Limerick and Institute of Technology Sligo (24 Jan 2019)

Seán Fleming: What is the Comptroller and Auditor General's view? Was this a real contract?

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 103 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Remuneration of certain senior staff in the University of Limerick and Institute of Technology Sligo (24 Jan 2019)

Seán Fleming: It is close to what I mentioned earlier. The contracts involved payments from public funds which were based on misrepresentation, which is probably the mildest word used by officials here today. Professor Fitzgerald used the word. He referred to the information provided, which was the basis for this. Someone else used stronger words. Is it correct that the information provided was not...

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 103 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Remuneration of certain senior staff in the University of Limerick and Institute of Technology Sligo (24 Jan 2019)

Seán Fleming: I know that the Comptroller and Auditor General was very disappointed. He was told the information once, and he said that there was "a misrepresentation of the facts". He might not want to say "deliberate", but it obviously did not happen by accident.

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 103 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Remuneration of certain senior staff in the University of Limerick and Institute of Technology Sligo (24 Jan 2019)

Seán Fleming: It was a deliberate misrepresentation.

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 103 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Remuneration of certain senior staff in the University of Limerick and Institute of Technology Sligo (24 Jan 2019)

Seán Fleming: There is a shorter three-word letter for that, but I will not say it.

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 103 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Remuneration of certain senior staff in the University of Limerick and Institute of Technology Sligo (24 Jan 2019)

Seán Fleming: It was a deliberate misrepresentation of the facts, which resulted in a payment of €189,000 and €180,000 of taxpayer's money for no real purpose. The State is at a loss. What arrangements has Mr. Fitzgerald put in place to recoup that money since his appointment?

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 103 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Remuneration of certain senior staff in the University of Limerick and Institute of Technology Sligo (24 Jan 2019)

Seán Fleming: Professor Fitzgerald is saying that it was approved by a senior official in the organisation at the time.

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 103 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Remuneration of certain senior staff in the University of Limerick and Institute of Technology Sligo (24 Jan 2019)

Seán Fleming: The professor told us earlier that there are two senior officials. The official who signed off on this is still employed on the same salary scale, albeit in a different job.

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 103 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Remuneration of certain senior staff in the University of Limerick and Institute of Technology Sligo (24 Jan 2019)

Seán Fleming: If Professor Fitzgerald can come before this committee and tell us that the information this individual provided misrepresented the situation and the Comptroller and Auditor General is satisfied that it was deliberately misrepresented, how can he have trust in people in his organisation? Is there not a case for the board to say that there has been an absolute breakdown of trust in respect of...

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 103 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Remuneration of certain senior staff in the University of Limerick and Institute of Technology Sligo (24 Jan 2019)

Seán Fleming: Is Professor Fitzgerald now indicating for the first time, after several hours of discussion, that there may be a process in place to deal with this situation because there was no suggestion of that earlier?

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 103 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Remuneration of certain senior staff in the University of Limerick and Institute of Technology Sligo (24 Jan 2019)

Seán Fleming: To what report does Professor Fitzgerald refer?

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 103 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Remuneration of certain senior staff in the University of Limerick and Institute of Technology Sligo (24 Jan 2019)

Seán Fleming: The Comptroller and Auditor General is an external auditor. It is not up to him. The university is supposed to have its own internal audit, board and own governance structures. The Comptroller and Auditor General is not a crutch for any public body to do what it should be doing. He is the university's external auditor, and it should not rely on an external source to make recommendations....